It's

Friday

28th

March

2025.

The

last

word

in

podcasting

news.

This

is

the

Pod

News

Weekly

review

with

James

Cridlin

and

Sam

Sethi.

I'm

James

Kridlin,

the

editor

of

Pod

News.

And

I'm

Sam

Sethi,

CEO

of

TruePaths.

One

of

the

things

that

we

want

to

do

is

make

sure

that

UK

podcasting

is

successful

internationally

and

we're

able

to

tap

into

those

international

markets.

That's

Chloe

Straw

from

Audio

uk.

She's

on

later

and

you

know,

I.

Have

reporters

messaging

me.

Can

you

just

tell

me,

is

it

going

to

be

up?

You

know,

you

don't

have

to

give

me

the

number.

Is

it

going

to

be

up?

Also

later,

Megan

Lazovic

from

Edison

Research.

And

most

shows

should

think

about

a

video

audience.

The

co

founders

of

Pod

Nation.

Also

in

the

chapters

today,

the

PSP

is

alive

and

meeting

in

Chicago.

A

podcast

movement

are

YouTube

adding

Dai

and

Kai

chucks

it

in

at

YouTube.

See

what

you

did

there,

Sam?

Couldn't

resist

that

one.

This

podcast

is

sponsored

by

buzzsprout

with

the

tool

support

community.

To

ensure

you

keep

podcasting,

start

podcasting.

Keep

podcasting

with

BuzzBrown.com

from

your

daily.

Newsletter,

the

Pod

News

Weekly

Review.

Now,

James,

let's

kick

this

off.

Look,

you

did

a

great

job

with

Megan

Lazevic

on

the

Infinite

Dial

last

week.

Did

you

enjoy

it?

Yes,

it

was

great

fun

to

do

that.

Yeah,

absolutely.

It

was

a

dream.

I've

been

using

the

Infinite

dial

for

a

long,

long

time,

so

it

was

a

bit

weird

to

be

actually

presenting

it.

Nice.

Now,

what

was

the

big

highlight

for

you

from

of

that

report?

I

mean,

I

think

the

big

highlight

was

podcasting

being

officially

mainstream.

Now,

over

50%

of

of

Americans

age

12

plus

now

listen

to

podcasts

every

month.

So

that's

pretty

good

news.

Also,

I

think

actually

what

was

good

is

that

the

study

is

now

talking

to

many

more

people.

It's

got

a

much

larger

survey

size

and

that's

a

good

thing

too.

But

yes,

some

really

good

numbers

coming

out

of

that.

Well,

also

I

thought

what

would

be

good

is

to

get

Megan

back

on

the

now

she's

had

time

to

settle

the

reports

out

and

I

just

wanted

to

get

her

insights

again

to

some

of

the

findings

that

were

in

the

report.

You

know,

stuff

about

the

car,

stuff

about

social

media,

things

to

do

with,

as

you

said,

you

know,

more

Americans

now

using

podcasting.

So

I

started

off

by

asking

Megan,

how

long's

it

been

going?

The

Infinite

Dial.

It

is

the

27th

year

of

the

study

and

it

was

started

by

Edison

President

Larry

Rosenberg

and

the

team

back

then.

And

I

actually

gave

a

shout

out

to

Pierre

Bovard,

who

was

with

Cumulus,

one

of

the

sponsors

of

the

report.

But

he

really

is

the

one

who

came

to

Larry,

way

back

then

to

talk

about

Internet

radio.

And

they

wanted

to

get

a

sense

of

how

Americans

are

using

it.

And

we're

so

lucky

that

we've

been

able

to

find

sponsors

for

the

studies

for

27

years.

So

we've

been

able

to

measure

that

growth

over

time

and

all

of

the

digital

audio

consumption

and

other

consumer

behaviors

over

that

time.

You've

also

grown

the

infinite

dial

to

be

in

other

countries

as

well.

Where

are

the

infinite

dials?

We

have

many

different

infinite

dials,

not

necessarily

consistent

every

year

in

every

country.

We've

done

Germany,

we've

done

South

Africa,

Australia.

That

one

is

coming

up.

Actually,

I

don't

know

if

we've

officially

announced

it,

but

you

can

look

for

that

one

this

year.

We've

done

New

Zealand

many

years

ago.

I

think

we

did

Ireland,

uk.

So

really,

we're

trying

to

get

it

anywhere

we

can.

Ideally,

we

can

get

to

a

place

where

we're

doing

it

every

single

year

in

every

country,

so

we

can

get

the

same

benefits

that

we

do

with

the

US

Study,

where

we

see

year

after

year

consistency

and

we're

able

to

see

how

habits

have

grown.

But

it's

also

nice

if

we

can

only

do

the

study

every

two

years

to

look

at

consumer

behaviors

that

way.

So

the

study

highlights

crucial

insights

into

podcast

consumption,

online

audio,

trends

in

car

audio

usage,

smart

speaker

usage,

social

media

behaviors,

and

other

digital

media.

Now,

what

was

the

big

highlight?

The

big

takeaway

is

up.

Things

are

up.

Digital

consumption

is

up,

but

especially

podcast

consumption

is

up.

And

that's

the

thing

that

everyone

is

holding

their

breath

for

every

single

year.

You

know,

I

have

reporters

messaging

me.

Can

you

just

tell

me,

is

it

gonna

be

up?

You

don't.

You

don't

have

to

give

me

the

number.

Is

it

gonna

be

up?

So

that

was

the

great

news

that

every

year

we've

previously

reported

podcast

listening,

that

podcast

listening

is

now

up.

70%

of

Americans

have

listened

to

a

podcast

that's

up

from

previous

years.

And

of

course,

the

exciting

bit

of

this

year

is

that

we

didn't

just

measure

listening,

we

also

asked

about

watching

podcasts.

And

51%

of

Americans

have

watched

a

podc.

You

know

what?

The

majority

of

Americans

are

consuming

podcasts

through

video.

And

then

when

you

sort

of

roll

up

that

information

and

look

at

the

combined

consumption

figures,

we

have

an

even

higher

jump.

73%

of

Americans

have

consumed

a

podcast

either

through

audio

or

video.

So

it's

pretty

much

up

any

way

you

look

at

it.

If

you're

just

looking

at

audio,

we

see

increase.

If

you

roll

in

those

video

numbers,

you

see

even

more

of

an

increase,

which

is

exciting

for

everyone

in

the

space.

They

want

to

be

able

to

say,

look

how

much

we've

grown.

Yeah.

And

one

of

the

things

in

the

report

is

that

YouTube

is

a

service

used

most

often

to

listen

to

podcasts,

which,

again,

given

that

they've

only

gone

into

the

market,

that

was

also

a

staggering

standout

for

me.

Well,

of

course,

podcasts

have

been

on

YouTube

for

many

years.

And

actually,

Sam,

I

should

tell

you,

I

know

that

you're

looking

at

from

the

tech

side.

I'm

always

looking

at

it

from

the

consumer

side.

While

I

do

work

with

the

surveys

and

the

quantitative

research,

I

spend

a

lot

of

my

time

in

qualitative

research

where

I'm

talking

to

real

people

about

their

consumption.

And

you

ask

a

real

person

about

their

consumption

to

podcasts,

they

say,

oh,

yeah,

I've

been

listening

to

podcasts,

or

I've

been

watching

this

podcast

on

YouTube

for

years.

So

the

consumers

don't

necessarily

think

about

the

tech

and

the

networks

and

all

of

that.

They

don't

see

it

the

same

way

that

people

in

the

industry

do.

So

we

say,

oh,

YouTube

just

got

in

the

space.

Or

they

finally

just

talked

about

it

in

their

yearly

meeting.

But

no,

they've.

They've

been

in

the

space

because

that's

where

people

are.

They're

heavily

using

YouTube

for

so

many

different

parts

of

their

life.

So

it

makes

sense

that

they're

also

consuming

podcast

content

through

YouTube.

So

I

love

the

fact

that

everything's

up,

but

looking

back

over

the

last

six,

seven

months,

maybe

even

last

couple

of

years,

we

talk

about

number

of

redundancies

within

the

industry.

We

talk

about

the

fact

that

advertising

revenue

is

not

going

across

that

2

billion

threshold.

How

do

we

equate

the

two

between

a

growing

audience

that's

listening

and

yet

a

declining

industry

in

terms

of

the

number

of

people?

So

where

do

we

balance

those

two

parts

of

the

conversation?

I

mean,

there's

an

ebb

and

flow

in

every

part

of

business

and

adjustment,

readjustment.

And

I'm

sorry,

I

can't

necessarily

speak

to

all

of

that

again

because

I'm

so

in

the

consumer

world.

But

we

do

know

the

opportunity

is

there,

and

hopefully

having

these

new

numbers

can

help

the

industry

prove

their

case,

prove

that

people

are

consuming,

that

people

are

getting

the

messaging,

and

that

it's

really

valuable

messaging.

In

one

of

the

other

studies,

I

know

we'll

get

to

later

the

Fandom

phenomenon

does

talk

about

the

amazing

relationship

that

listeners

have

with

podcasts

and

how

much

they

value

messaging

through

those

podcasts.

So

the

opportunity

is

absolutely

there,

and

it's

growing

because

more

and

more

people

are

entering

the

space

every

day.

So

how

the

industry

harnesses

that.

I

can't

help

you

there.

I'm

sorry.

The

opportunity

is

there.

That's

what

you

guys

have

to

figure

out.

Now,

this

is,

as

you

said,

the

overall

consumption

in

audio

as

well.

Not

just

purely

in

podcasting,

but

you're

also

looking

at

social

media.

You're

looking

at

TV.

You

know,

YouTube

have

talked

about

their

primary

platform

is

now

going

to

be

tv,

which

is,

for

me,

very

weird

because

I've

never

really

looked

at

YouTube

on

a

TV

again.

That's

what

people

are

telling

you.

But

social

media

itself,

where

are

you

seeing

the

changes

occurring

there?

What's

happening

with

people's

behaviors?

Well,

can

I

tell

you

just

related

to

Infinite

Dial,

anecdotally,

we

used

to

have

lots

of

live

conversation

on

Twitter.

Everyone

used

to

watch

Infinite

Dial

and

use

the

hashtag

and

talk

on

Twitter.

And

social

media

usage

has

been

a

lot

more

disjointed.

You

know,

there's

a

big

loss

to

the

X

platform.

People

have

moved

to

other

platforms.

And

for

the

webinar

itself,

it

was

great.

All

of

our

viewers

were

actually

chatting

in

the

zoom

platform

to

each

other

because

there

wasn't

one

platform

that

we

were

all

together.

So

it

was

nice

for

the

webinar.

I

enjoyed

seeing

everyone

chatting.

But

it's

also

frustrating

that

there

doesn't

seem

to

be

one

platform

that

we

are

all

on.

Of

course,

there's

the

meta

platforms,

Facebook,

Instagram,

they're

really

dominating

the

space.

But

Infinite

Dial

and

I

think

the

podcast

world,

when

we're

talking

about

more

business

stuff,

where

has

that

landed?

I'm

not

necessarily

posting

about

Infinite

Dial

on

my

Facebook,

so

it's

very

interesting.

The

space

and

the

Infinite

Dial

does

show

all

of

the

changes

in

where

people

have

left,

what

platforms

are

growing.

And

actually,

my

favorite

question

from

that

section

was

about

TikTok,

because

we

were

fielding

the

study

in

early

January

when

everyone

thought

TikTok

was

going

to

go

away,

and

we

wondered,

what

would

happen?

Where

would

people

go?

So

we

actually

added

that

question

in

the

study.

If

TikTok

were

to

be

banned

in

the

US

which

one

social

network

service

would

you

use

most

often?

So

we

got

to

that

hypothetical

answer,

and

most

people

said

that

they

would

go

to

Instagram

or

Facebook,

but

it

did

vary

by

age.

So

the

younger

people

were

more

likely

to

choose

Instagram.

Older

people

were

More

likely

to

choose

Facebook.

But

there

was

a

good

cohort

across

all

generations

that

said

they

would

use

YouTube

and

YouTube

shorts.

So

will

you

be

doing

this

same

presentation

at

Podcast

Movement

in

a

couple

of

weeks

time

or

even

next

week?

Gosh,

next

week?

No.

Infinite

Dial

Lives

on

the

Internet

for

all

to

see

however

many

times

they'd

like.

But

I

will

be

presenting

the

fandom

phenomenon.

That's

a

study

that

we

did

jointly

with

Wondery

and

Zensu,

and

I'm

really

excited

to

talk

about

how

much

people

love

podcasting

and

how

much

podcasting

loves

them

back,

what

it

gives

to

them

in

their

lives,

and

all

of

the

different

ways

that

podcast

enhances

people's

lives.

Well,

let's

talk

about

that

report.

I

was

really

interested

in

the

outcome

of

that

report.

You

sort

of

touched

on

it

that

there

is

a

parasocial

relationship

between

the

fan

and

the

creator.

Is

this

something

that

was

unexpected

or

did

we

not

know

this

already?

And

if

we

know

now

that

there

is

that

relationship,

how

can

the

creator

enhance

that

relationship

with

their

fan,

then?

So,

no,

it

was

not

a

surprise.

We

already

knew

that

there

was

something

really

special

about

the

connection

between

a

podcast

consumer

and

the

show.

We

already

knew

that

there

was

this

level

of

fandom

out

there.

And

from

previous

research,

we

knew

that

people

were

more

likely

to

trust

the

messaging

that

came

from

a

host

if

they

were

a

fan.

So

we

already

knew

something

was

special

there.

But

the

intention

of

the

study

was

to

really

break

it

apart

and

understand

it

a

little

bit

more,

to

understand

all

of

the

different

ways

that

fandom

enhances

a

person's

life.

People

talk

about

fandom

in

so

many

different

ways.

Fans

of

artists,

fans

of

sports,

where

people

have

this

crazy

love

for

something

where

it's

not

just,

oh,

I

like

it,

it's

like,

becomes

a

part

of

their

personality.

It

becomes

a

way

that

they

see

themselves.

And

that

exists

in

podcasts,

too.

So

is

it

a

funnel

effect?

Is

it

that

you

start

off

with

a

tangential

relationship,

you

might

have

just

heard

of

this

podcast,

then

you

take

five

or

six

episodes

to

gain

a

relationship

with

this

podcast,

and

then

you

move

down

the

funnel.

You

now

are

fully

engaged.

So

is

it

a

state

of

mind

that

you

become

a

fandom?

Is

it

a

badge

of

honor

that

you

reach?

Or

is

it

day

one

you

can

be

in

the

fandom?

Yeah,

it's

not

necessarily

a

certain

path

for

everyone.

Everyone

has

their

own

path

to

fandom.

You

know,

some

people

become

a

super

fan

of

a

podcast,

they

already

love

the

topic

or

they

already

love

the

personality.

Actually,

you

know,

Amy

Poehler

just

came

out

with

her

podcast,

and

I've

loved

her

forever.

She's

released

three

episodes.

I'm

already

a

fan

of

her

podcast.

So

there

are

different

paths

and

there

are

sort

of.

And

that's

one

of

the

things

that

we

try

to

do

with

this

study,

sort

of

understanding

how

listeners

become

fans.

They're

kind

of

four

different

end

points.

There's

sort

of

the

connection

that

stems

from

feeling

like

they're

friends

with

the

host.

71%

of

fans

say

that

they

feel

like

they're

friends

with

the

host,

so

that

it's

connection

driven.

It

could

also

be

identity

driven.

One

of

the

people

we

conducted,

in

addition

to

a

survey,

we

also

conducted

in

person

interviews.

One

of

the

people

we

spoke

to

said,

I

think

podcasts

help

me

see

myself

more

clearly.

They've

helped

me

understand

myself.

So

there's

this

underlying

connection

with

identity.

With

podcasts,

they

can

also

become

a

fan

through

emotional

connection.

Someone

said,

podcasts

help

me

be

more

productive.

They

help

me

regulate

my

attitude.

So.

Or

they

make

me

laugh.

They

71%

said,

of

the

fans,

71%

said

they

are

fans

because

podcasts

help

them

escape

real

life.

So

there's

like

this

emotional

connection,

and

then

finally

there's

the

sense

of

community.

That's

also

one

of

the

four

primary

drivers

for

fandom.

62%

are

fans

because

they

help

them

feel

like

they're

a

part

of

something

bigger

than

themselves.

So

I

am

a

fan

of

this

podcast

called,

you're

about

to

say

Pod.

News

Weekly,

weren't

you?

Pod

News

Weekly,

yes.

When

I

meet

another

Pod

News

Weekly

fan,

we

go

crazy

because

we're

like,

oh,

my

gosh,

you

listen

to

Sam

and

James

two,

you

know,

there

is

that

sense.

It's

not

just

you,

it's

bigger

than

you.

So

those

are

four

different

examples,

four

different

touch

points

that

get

people

into

fandom

that

sort

of

drive

the

fandom.

And

it's

great

for

podcasters

to

understand

all

of

these

different

endpoints

to

better

understand,

you

know,

what

they're

doing.

Well,

and

that's

great

for

brands,

too,

to

sort

of

understand

the

different

ways

that

they

can

connect

with

consumers

through

podcasts.

Now,

look,

if

everyone

wants

to

go

and

find

more

about

Edison

Research,

go

and

find

more

about

the

Infinite

Dial

or

this

fandom

report.

Where

would

they

go?

Megan

edisonresearch.com

and

because

social

media

is

so

disjointed,

look

on

every

platform

for

us.

We're

there.

Look

for

us.

I

think

it's

gonna,

you

know,

like

you

have

with

podcasting,

wherever

you

get

your

podcast,

we

have

to

have

wherever

you

get

your

social

media.

Is

the

next

state.

Right?

Right.

Yeah.

Find

us

on

edisonresearch.com

and

sign

up

for

our

weekly

newsletter.

You

can

find

a

link

to

sign

up

on

edisonresearch.com

as

well

because

we

really

do

make

an

effort

to

deliver

never

before

seen

data

every

Wednesday

in

your

inbox.

Megan,

thank

you

so

much

and

thank

you

for

the

Infinite

Dial.

Of

course.

Thanks.

Megan

Lazovic

from

Edison

Research.

The

good

news

is

I

think

Infinite

Dial

Australia

is

currently

out

in

the

field,

so

we'll

get

some

details

from

Australia

relatively

soon.

Also,

I

gather

that

Infinite

Dial

New

Zealand

is

coming

back

as

well.

It

is

this

year

as

well,

which

is

excellent

news.

So

I'm

hoping

that

we

get

more

from

other

countries

because

it's

really

useful

when

you

can

start

comparing

things.

So

yes,

that's

a

really

useful

thing.

I

also

found

the

conversation

that

we

had

about

Wondery's

report

about

fandom

quite

interesting

as

well.

So

yeah,

again

I

think

that's

something

that

we're

going

to

touch

on

later

in

this

show

now.

Indeed.

And

of

course

Wonder

is

report

on

fandom

will

be

at

Evolutions

in

Chicago

next

week.

It's

not

the

only

big

study

though,

is

it?

No,

there's

going

to

be

another

one

as

well.

It's

called

the

State

of

video

podcasting

in

2025

by

Coleman

Insights

and

Amplify

Media.

What's

this

one

about,

James?

So

this

is

all

about

video

podcasts,

how

people

consum

and

whether

or

not

video

is

a

helpful

thing.

Now

they

have

released

a

little

bit

of

that

data

a

little

bit

early,

saying

that

only

10%

of

Gen

Z

podcast

consumers

never

consume

video

podcasts.

So

basically

it's

all

about

video

for

them.

Although,

you

know,

about

40%

of

Gen

Z

podcast

consumers

only

or

mostly

consume

audio

podcasts.

So,

you

know,

a

bit

of

a

mixed

bag

there,

but

it

should

be

really

interesting

seeing

that

obviously

Coleman

Insights,

just

like

Edison

Research,

very

large

good

market

research

company

and

yes,

so

a

ton

of

data

there.

You're

going

to

be

presenting

something

as

well,

aren't

you,

at

Evolutions?

I

am

indeed.

I'm

going

to

be

presenting

the

POD

News

report

card

and

I've

also

got

some

data

from

PodTrack

which

will

be

an

exclusive

which

I'm

looking

forward

to

breaking

as

well

next

week.

I'd

love

to

tell

you

what

that

data

is.

I've

got

it

emailed

to

me.

Haven't

had

the

chance

to

actually

open

the

email

yet.

Right.

So

what

was

it

entitled?

Exclusive

do

not

open

until

next

week.

I

mean,

I

basically

I

contacted

them

a

couple

of

months

ago.

And

I

said,

oh,

I'm

doing

the

report

card

again.

If

you'd

like

a

big.

A

big

logo

on

the

screen

with

some

data,

then

do

you

have

any

interesting

data?

And

they

do.

So

that's

good.

So,

yes,

so

very

much

looking

forward

to

breaking

some

of

that.

I

went

through

the

the

POD

News

report

card

with

Apple

Podcasts

yesterday

and.

And

it

seemed.

Seemed

to

go

down,

you

know,

relatively

well,

which

is

nice.

So

I'm

looking

forward

to

sharing

it

with

other

platforms

as

well

over

the

next

couple

of

weeks

now.

Also,

congratulations

to

friend

of

the

show,

Stephen

Goldstein,

who

is

celebrating

10

years

at

Amplify

Media.

So

maybe

you

and

him

can

get

in

a

bar

somewhere

over

in

Evolutions

to

have

a

drink.

Yes,

that

sounds

like

a

good

plan.

He's

a

good

professor,

Goldstein.

Yes,

he

was

the

person.

He

was

the

person

who

came

up

with

the

idea

of

POD

News,

Interestingly.

There

you

go.

Well,

maybe

you

own

one

or

more

drinks.

I

think

I

do.

Yes,

exactly.

Right.

Now,

moving

on.

When

is

a

play

not

a

play?

James?

Now,

we

know

a

download

is

not

a

listen,

but

when

is

a

play

not

a

play?

Basically,

we

saw

this

week

that

what

counts

as

a

play

in

analytics

in

Apple

Podcasts

can

be

very

weird.

Bumper.

We're

talking

about

it

every

time

you

hit

the

play

button

in

Apple

podcasts.

Tell

me

more

about

this.

Yes,

this

was

a

sort

of

hidden

thing

in

the

middle

of

an

article

from

Bumper

which

shows

how

to

combine

plays,

basically.

So

looking

at

YouTube,

looking

at

Apple,

looking

at

Spotify

and

so

on

and

so

forth

and

going,

okay,

well,

how

many

total

plays

have

we

got?

And

the

quick

answer

is

there's

not

an

easy

way

to

compile

that

at

all.

Apart

from

anything

else,

YouTube

doesn't

tell

us

how

it

calculates

a

play.

It

never

has.

So

that's

a

weird

one,

but

hidden

away

in

this.

And

I

spoke

with

Dan

Meisner

from

Bumper

about

this

was

a

little

thing

that

said

that

every

time

you

hit

the

play

button

in

Apple

podcasts,

it

counts

as

a

play.

So

that

means

that,

for

example,

if

you

pause

a

podcast

and

then

hit

play

again,

well,

that's

at

least

two

plays,

maybe

even

three,

because

you've

hit

that

play

button.

So

if

you.

So

my

guess

is

that

includes

if

you

take

your

AirPods

out

and

you

order

a

coffee

and

then

you

put

your

AirPods

back

in

again

because

that's

paused

it

and

then

played

it.

Maybe

it

includes

as

you're

driving,

you're

listening

to

a

podcast,

and

the

podcast

pauses

ever

so

slightly

to

tell

you

to

turn

left.

Maybe

it

includes

that

as

well.

Who

knows?

Who

knows

indeed?

Yeah,

we

don't

know.

Yeah,

who

knows

indeed.

But

I

did,

you

know,

I

mean

I

did

go

into

Apple

Podcasts

Connect

and

find

that

this

show

actually

has,

in

Apple

Podcasts

has

32

listeners

but

232

plays,

which

makes

no

sense

to

me

at

all

actually

if

you

think

about

it,

because,

I

mean,

how

does

that

really

work?

32

listeners

but

232

plays?

Are

we

really

saying

that

most

people

are

playing

it

10

times?

No,

I

find

that

very

strange.

But

anyway,

so

yes,

that

was,

that

was

an

interesting.

That

was

an

interesting

thing.

I

thought.

So

remind

me,

why

do

we

have

different

metrics

for

play

through

the

main

players?

You

know,

Apple,

Spotify,

YouTube.

Is

it

because

no

one

set

a

standard

or

is

it

because

they

all

want

to

do

it

differently?

Well,

I

think

it's

partially.

Nobody

has

set

a

standard,

or

at

least

nobody

is.

Nobody

cares

about

a

standard

if

even

if

it

is

actually

set.

So

Apple

hasn't

signed

up

to

any

of

the

IAB

guidelines,

nor

have

Spotify,

nor

have

YouTube.

So

IAB,

you

know,

I

mean,

it's

a

useful

thing,

but

if

the

three

big

podcast

apps

don't

actually

use

it,

it's

not

particularly

helpful.

So.

Yeah,

but

you

know,

I

mean

a

play

could

be

a

useful

number

if

it

actually

meant

something.

But

what

I

think

is

pretty

clear

with

this

is

that

it

doesn't

actually

mean

anything

anyway.

Yeah,

now

I

think

it

could

be

converted

into

an

aggregated

total

listen

time

and

percent

completed

and

then

the

play

doesn't

really

matter.

The

number

of

times

you

hit

start,

stop,

start,

stop,

start,

stop

wouldn't

actually

have

any

relevance.

It

would

be

actually

what

was

the

total

aggregated

time

you

played

of

that

episode?

So

you

could.

Moving

on,

I

just

wanted

to

have

this

discussion

with

you.

YouTube

pricing.

Last

week

we

talked

about

YouTube

expanding

its

pricing

with

something

called

Premium

Lite.

It's

being

piloted

in

the

US

but

it's

extending

out

weirdly

to

Thailand,

Germany

and

Australia.

I

don't

know

how

they

randomly

pick

those

three

countries,

but

they.

But

what's

very

cool

about

it

is

they're

putting

a

YouTube

ad

free

price

of

799

per

month

dollars.

And

that

means

you

don't

get

music,

but

you

do

get

ad

free

video

and

podcasting.

So

I

thought

that

was

very

cool.

The

thing

I

wanted

to

ask

you,

James,

is

this

puts

a

real

squeeze

on

Spotify

because

Spotify

have

5.99

for

students,

$11.99

for

individuals

and

16.99

for

family.

Spotify

couldn't

put

out

a

799.

No

music

service,

could

they?

No,

not

really.

I

mean,

because

there's

hardly

anything

on

Spotify

that

isn't

music.

I

mean,

yes,

podcasts,

but,

you

know,

but

your

podcast

is

still

going

to

have

ads

in

them.

So,

no,

I

don't

think

that

Spotify

can

offer

this.

And

I

think

it's

probably

just

a

historical

thing

in

that.

I

think

it's

probably

just

a

historical

thing

in

that

YouTube

obviously

came

from

the

video

world,

but

also

had

a

music

service

that's

part

of

YouTube

Premium.

And

they've

all

of

a

sudden

realized,

well,

actually,

you

know

what,

we

should

stop

doing

the

music

service

as

well.

And

then

we

can

offer

a

cheaper

ad,

free

version

of

YouTube.

So

I

think

that,

that,

you

know,

makes

a

bit

of

sense

there.

But

yeah,

I

think

it

will

add

a

squeeze

onto

Spotify.

Clearly

spot

concerned

about

YouTube

because

Spotify

has

spent

the

last

six

months

or

so

talking

about

video

all

of

the

time

and

saying

that

video

is

the

future

for

everything.

And

you

can

also

see,

you

know,

in

certain

countries,

and

I

don't

know

if

you

have

it

in

the

uk,

but

in

certain

countries

Spotify

also

has

music

videos

as

well,

which

they're

trying

to

roll

out

into

the

US

but

they

haven't

yet

managed

to

do

that,

I

believe.

But

obviously

that's

an

addition

there

as

well.

We

talked

about

their

price

elasticity.

I

don't

think

they

can

go

much

higher

in

their

price

before

it

snaps

and

then

they

may

have

to

come

down

to

compete

on

this

799

price

point.

But

as

I

said

last

week,

Spotify

is

good

for

music,

but

it's

a

poor

podcast

app.

And

I

don't

know

if

I

would

pay

just

for

podcasting

as

an

app

for

Spotify.

Yeah,

yeah.

No,

indeed.

Now,

James,

you

were

on

the

media

Roundtable

this

week

and

you

said

something

quite,

I

thought,

quite.

Really?

Well,

often

you

say

things

interesting.

I'm

not.

I

was

about

to

say

you

said

something

interesting.

Interesting.

Once

in

a

lifetime.

God.

Finally.

No,

let

me

try

rewording

that.

You

were

on

the

media

round

table

and

you

were

talking

about

this

topic

of

advertising

and

what

you

said

was,

but

the

people

who

would

then

listen

to

the

adverts

are

probably

not

the

people

you

want

to

reach.

Yes,

yes.

Because

I

mean,

if

you

can

afford

whether

it's

7.99,

whether

it's

11.99,

whatever

that

money

is

per

month

to

get

rid

of

the

ads,

then

that

probably

says

that

you've

got

more

disposable

income.

That

probably

says

that

you

are

therefore

a

bit

richer

than

a

listener,

that's

that,

that

isn't

doing

that.

And

in

which

case,

surely

you

are

the

people

who

the

advertisers

want.

Surely

the

advertisers

don't

want

just

to

be

advertising

to

people

that

can't

afford

to

get

rid

of

the

ads.

So,

yeah,

send

them

an

Aston

Martin

ad

to

somebody

who

can't

afford

7.99.

So

I

always

find

it

very,

I

always

find

it

very

odd

when

companies

say

you

can,

you

can

get

rid

of

the

ads

because

what

does

that

say

about

the

audience

that

hears

the

ads?

So,

yeah,

I

do

think

it's

something

just

to

have

a

think

about.

Now,

YouTube

could

be

switching

on

dynamic

ad

insertion.

James,

tell

me

more

about

this.

Yeah,

so

this

is

according

to

a

report

by

Semaphore.

The

report

basically

says

that

YouTube

is

considering

making

dynamic

ads

in

videos.

So

it

would

allow

a

host

red

ad

to

be

dynamically

inserted

and

swapped

out

within

individual

YouTube

videos.

So

of

course

you

can

do

that

in

terms

of

audio

podcasts

using

OpenRSS.

So

that's

all

good.

And

so

the

theory

is

that

you

can

do

that

in

videos

as

well.

What

I

would

say

is

this

sounds

like

a

very

interesting

idea,

but

it

also

sounds

like

an

idea

of

YouTube

going,

ah,

maybe

there's

some

money

in

this

dynamically

switchable

ad

insertions

and

maybe

we

can

get

our

30,

40%

of

that.

And

so

it's

another

parking

their

tanks

on

the

lawn

of

folks

who,

you

know,

who

already

offer

that

particular

service.

So

I'm

not

necessarily

sure

it's

good

news

for

the

podcaster.

I

think

if

anything,

it

might

mean

that

we

see

the

rules

about

host

red

ads

being

changed

in

the

future

for

YouTube

so

that

YouTube

actually

begin

to

get

some

money

from

those

instead

of

just

allowing

those

to

be

in

videos

anyway.

So

I'm

not

sure

sure

that

it's

good

news

for

creators,

but,

you

know,

time

will

tell.

The

only

thing

that

I

would

say

is

this

is

a

report

in

Semaphore.

YouTube

haven't

commented.

And

when

I

did

a

report

on

YouTube's

getting

RSS

ingestion

and

that's

going

to

be

amazing.

YouTube

took

nine

months

to

launch

that

product.

So

I

would

imagine

this

is

very

early

on

and

I

would

imagine

that

YouTube

is

busy

thinking

about

how

it

works,

but

we're

not

going

to

see

that

anytime

soon.

No,

but

Semaphore

also

suggested

something

about

Spotify

as

well.

James?

Well,

I

mean

they

say

that

Spotify

already

offers

this

particular

product.

It

doesn't,

it

doesn't

have

dynamic

ad

insertion

in

video.

And

indeed

when

you

add

video

to

your

podcast

episodes

on

Spotify,

you're

getting

rid

of

dynamic

ad

insertion

on

audio

as

well.

So

it's

a

bit

of

a

mess.

So,

you

know,

it's

not

always

fair

to

point

out,

you

know,

inaccuracies

in

other

people's,

you

know,

in

other

people's

coverage.

But

in

that

particular

case,

it's

just

worthwhile

pointing

out

that

nobody

else

offers

this

in.

I

mean,

they

said

that

both

Spotify

and

Apple

Podcasts

offer

it.

Well,

Apple

Podcasts

doesn't

host

shows

anyway,

so.

No,

and

Spotify

doesn't

offer

that

either.

So

always

interesting

just

to,

you

know,

keep

an

eye

on

that

sort

of

thing.

Now,

talking

of

Spotify

and

video,

there

was

an

announcement

briefly

on

your

favorite

platform,

LinkedIn,

of

FlightCast,

announcing

the

beta

of

their

video

and

audio

hosting

platform.

Rox,

who

is

the

CTO

building

the

platform,

said,

for

the

past

year,

I've

been

quietly

building

a

video

podcast

hosting

platform

with

Stephen

Bartlett

from

Diary

of

a

CEO.

We're

running

a

closed

beta,

although

Steve

wants

to

hold

off.

I

want

to

add

a

handful

more

beta

testers.

So

if

you

go

onto

LinkedIn,

find

rocks

and

then

type

I'm

in,

he

will

send

you

a

link

to

apply

for

the

beta.

That

doesn't

mean

you'll

get

in,

by

the

way,

but

you

can

apply.

But

what's

very

cool

is

you

can

upload

video

and

audio

everywhere.

So

they're

talking

about

Apple,

YouTube,

but

they've

got

Spotify

video

as

well.

And

I

know

that

they

did

that.

We

talked

about

this

in

December

when

I.

Are

they

talking

about

Apple?

Well,

I

assume

they

will

be,

because

if

you're

saying

everywhere,

well,

everywhere

says

Apple,

doesn't

it?

Yeah,

I

was

curious

about

that

because

they

didn't

mention

Apple

at

all

on

the

LinkedIn

post.

I

think

the

interesting

thing

about

this

is

they

appear

to

be

the

first

podcast

hosting

company

to

be

able

to

upload

video

directly

into

Spotify.

I'm

unaware

of

any

other

company.

Maybe

Megaphone

will

do

that

too,

but

I'm

unaware

of

any

other

company

which

has

access

like

that.

You

can

do

that

from

YouTube,

obviously.

But

that

I

thought

was

really

interesting

seeing

that

side

of

it

as

well.

It

would

be

great

if

it

also

supported

video

podcasting

through

OpenRSS.

So,

yeah,

I'd

like

to,

you

know,

I'd

like

to

learn

a

little

bit

more

about

that

bit.

Yeah,

I

think

when

we

all

get

on

to

the

actual

product,

we'll

know

more.

Personally,

I

don't

think

it's,

you

know,

hosts

are

going

to

go,

oh,

my

God,

that's

it.

I

think

this

is

a

wake

up

call

to

host

to

actually

get

their

act

together

and

start

to

look

at

this

stuff.

I

mean,

we

had

Apple

giving

them,

you

know,

access

to

Apple

Connect

and

they've

got

Apple

delegated

delivery.

I

think

Spotify

hopefully

will

give

everyone

else

access.

I

mean,

Stephen

B.

Got

it

directly

by

asking

Daniel

Ek.

I

don't

think,

you

know,

everyone

else

can

phone

up

Daniel

and

ask

him

for

direct

access,

but

if

they've

built

it

now

for

FlightCast,

maybe

they

can

give

that

same

access

to

every

other

host.

What

isn't

in

there

though,

is

live.

There's

no

live

capability

yet

within

what

they're

doing

at

the

moment.

Yeah,

yeah,

there

you

go.

Watch

this

space

now.

Talking

about

hosts,

talking

about

the

community

working

together.

Surprise,

surprise.

There

was

a

blog

post

from

the

Podcast

Standards

Project.

James,

what

did

they

say?

Yes.

So

the

Podcast

Standards

Project

posted

their

first

thing

since

August

of

last

year

with,

you

know,

what

we've

achieved

and

what

comes

next?

What

we've

achieved

is

that

there

are

five

features

that

the

Podcast

six

features

that

the

Podcasting

Standards

Project

try

and

get

implemented.

And

they

say

that

there

are

427,000

RSS

feeds

out

there

with

all

five

of

those

features,

which

is

nice.

And

basically

saying

that

pretty

well

everybody

supports

all

of

those,

you

know,

so

that

is

good.

And

yeah,

I

think

this

was

very

much

a

post

from

Justin

Jackson

from

Transistor,

basically

trying

to

give

a

different

view

than

the

view

that

we

have

had

on

this

show,

which

is

that

the

Podcast

Standards

Project

is

a

waste

of

time

and

it's

probably

already

closed.

You

know,

there's

a

long

post

here

with

lots

of

celebrations

of

all

of

those

shows,

but

also

talks

about

what

the

future

might

be

and

is

there

a.

Is

there

a

killer

feature,

much

the

same

as

Tom

Webster

has

been

talking

about?

Is

there

a

killer

feature

for

podcast

apps

that

we

can

help

implement

and

all

of

that

kind

of

stuff

and

just

the

problems

that

they've

had

in

terms

of

moving

forward.

Not

that

anyone's

ever

asked

and

no

one

ever

will,

but

here's

my

opinion,

for

what

it's

worth,

they

need

to

put

money

into

a

pot.

I

think

the

Podcast

Standards

Project

is

a

lovely

group

of

people.

All

the

people

involved

individually,

we

know

as

friends,

but

in

my

opinion,

don't

just

talk

the

talk,

walk

the

walk.

You

need

to.

The

website

needs

to

be

updated.

You

need

to

pull

in

the

person

taxonomy.

It's

sitting

on

a

remote

site

somewhere,

never

been

updated

or

looked

at

for

three

years.

The

music

licenses

stuff

is

sat

with

Phantom

Power

Media,

the

music

category

list

is

sat

with

Wave

Lake.

Daniel

has

a

website

that's

got

some

other

stuff

on

it.

It's

all

over

the

place.

That

needs

to

all

be

pulled

together.

That's

the

first

thing

I

would

say.

They

need

to

invest

into

seed

money.

Now,

this

is

a

controversial

one,

but

I

think

they

need

to

invest

into

new

apps

and

then

the.

The

more

apps

that

support

more

tags,

the

more

funding

they

get.

The

quid

pro

quo

would

be,

it

would

be

an

equity

investment.

So

the

apps

then,

if

they

got

further

funding

or

in

the

future

sold

there

would

be

money

back

into

the

PSP

pot.

It's

a

bit

like

the

Norway

Wealth

Fund.

You

know,

they

keep

investing

into

it

and

then

they

get

more

and

more

money

into

that

fund.

And

finally,

I

think,

you

know,

the

first

party

data

we

talked

about

earlier,

giving

that

back

to

hosts

from

apps,

I

think

there

would

be

an

incentive.

And

finally

they

need

to

find

someone

who's

going

to

be

an

evangelist.

I

stepped

up,

I

stepped

down.

It

needs

to

be

a

paid,

permanent

role.

Somebody

needs

to

do

it.

They

need

to

be

flying

around

to

all

the

shows,

events,

talking

to

the

agencies,

talking

to

production

companies,

talking

to

just

everyone

in

the

ecosystem

and

building

those

champions.

We

talked

about

last

week,

James,

the

people

who

can

take

on

each

tag

and

become

the

challenger.

There's

so

much

that

can

be

done.

I

really,

really,

really

hope

that

the

Podcast

Dance

project

is

a

success.

It's

the

marketing

arm

of

podcasting

2.0

and

it

needs

to

really

work.

So

I'll

end

it

on

one

thing.

Either

go

big

or

go

home.

The

halfway

house

that

it's

been

is

a

waste

of

time.

And

so

either

do

something

or

just

shut

up

about

it

and

leave

it

alone

and

move

on.

Yes,

I

would

agree

with

all

of

that.

I

think

it's

very

important

that

we

move

forward

with

that

and

actually

get

moving,

you

know,

with

it.

I

mean,

I

think

it's

interesting

seeing

there's

a

big

table

in

that,

in

that

posting,

and

it's

interesting

seeing

that,

you

know,

just

zero

support

from

companies

like

acast,

Libsyn,

podbean,

Spreaker,

Spotify,

obviously,

and

so

on

and

so

forth.

So,

yeah,

it's,

it's,

you

know,

it'd

be

great

if

there

was

more,

more

people

involved.

Buzzsprout,

our

sponsor,

is

involved

with

it,

as

of

course,

is

transistor

captivateredcircle,

RSS.com

and

others

in

there

as

well.

So

it'd

be

good

to

see

more

people

being

involved

with

that

as

well.

Now,

talking

of

RSS.com,

they've

been

active,

haven't

they?

And

what

have

they

been

doing?

Yeah,

they

have.

So

they

have

achieved,

for

the

first

time,

they've

achieved

IAB

podcast

measurement

guidelines

version

2.2

compliance,

which

is

exciting.

So

that

is

one

thing,

IB

compliance

obviously

useful

for

you

in

case

you

are

moving

podcast

hosting

companies

and

you

want

to

at

least

make

sure

that

the

analytics

are

going

to

be

roughly

equivalent.

And

similarly,

you

know,

they

are

useful

numbers

because

quite

a

lot

of

people

actually

ask

for

IAB

compliant

numbers

these

days.

You

know,

regardless

of

our

issues

with

the

ip,

you

know,

it

is

useful

to

at

least

have

had

someone

looking

at

your

code,

regardless

of

how

useful

those

numbers

actually

are

at

the

end

of

it.

But

what

also

RSS.com

has

done

is

they

have,

they're

a

bit

late

to

this,

but

they

have

now

added

automatic

Apple

Podcasts

submission.

So

that

feature,

if

you

remember,

was

launched

last

month

from

Apple,

a

bunch

of

people

jumping

in

and

doing

it.

And

it

essentially

means

that

if

you

are

a

brand

new

podcaster,

you

can

just

publish

to

Apple

with,

with

one

button

it

goes

into

RSS.com's

account

and

then

you

can

move

it

over

onto

your

own

account

when

you're

ready

to

sign

up

with

Apple

directly.

So

that's

a

good

thing.

They

also,

I

mean

it's

not

a

trade

secret

because

it's

on

there

website.

They're

adding

dynamic

ad

insertion

very

shortly

as

well.

So

again,

something

else

that

they

are

working

on.

Yeah,

indeed.

Moving

forward,

Bloomberg.

Ashley

Carmen

had

a

very

interesting

report

this

week

which

was

porn

on

Spotify

is

infiltrating

the

platform's

top

podcast

charts.

Now

that

is

not

a

good

thing.

It's

happened

before

in

the

past

and

they've

taken

it

down.

It's

a

game

of

whack

a

mole

that

Spotify

likes

to

play.

But

what,

what

they

were

worried

about,

at

least

the,

the

implication

was

was

that

because

they've

added

video

to

Spotify's

podcast,

now

that

porn

companies

are

going,

oh

there's

money

there,

let's

stick

some

stuff

up

and

see

what

we

can

get.

But

according

to

Spotify,

our

platform

rules

will

not

allow