The

Pod

News

Weekly

Review

uses

chapters

so

you

can

skip

the

story

coming

up

later

about

Australia,

because

who

cares

about

that.

The

last

word

in

podcasting

news.

This

is

the

Pod

News

Weekly

Review

with

James

Cridlin

and

Sam

Sethi.

I'm

James

Critten,

the

editor

of

Pod

News.

And

I'm

Sam

Sethi,

the

CEO

of

Truth.

And

having

those

podcasts

hosted

on

YouTube

and

having

the

algorithm

find

new

audiences

for

you

every

single

day

turns

out

to

be

really,

really

powerful,

no

matter

how

big

of

a

podcaster

you

are.

YouTube's

Neil

Mo

on

podcasting

on

the

platform.

Plus,

the

download

is

dead

and

Australia

is

better

than

you.

This

podcast

is

sponsored

by

buzzsprout

with

the

tools,

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and

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to

ensure

you

keep

podcasting.

Start

podcasting.

Keep

podcasting

with

Buzzsprout.com

from

your

daily.

Newsletter,

the

Pod

News

Weekly

Review.

Right,

James?

Look,

Shock

horror

this

week.

James.

Yes.

The

man

that

runs

a

video

platform

says

people

don't

want

to

just

listen.

Yes,

they

want

to

watch.

I

wonder

why

he'd

say

that.

Who

would

have

thought

that?

No,

who

would

have

thunk

it?

Hey,

Zutalor,

as

the

French

say.

YouTube

CEO

Neil

Mohan

was

over

in

Cannes

talking

to

Janice

Min.

It

was

about

the

platform.

What

did

you

think?

Well,

yet

it

was

a

45

minute

or

so

invite

only

meeting

apparently.

Did

you

get

yours?

I

did,

funnily

enough.

But

this

was

the

day

before

Neil

Mohan

then

went

on

stage

and

said

more

stuff

and

I

believe

he

went

on

stage

and

was

talking

about

AI

and

was

talking

about

how

they're

going

to

be

implementing

AI

into

shorts

and

all

that

kind

of

stuff,

which

I

don't

optically

interested

in,

but

from

the

point

of

view

of

podcasting,

it

was

quite

interesting.

So

Janice

Min,

if

you

don't

know,

is

the

CEO

and

editor

in

chief

of

the

Ankler,

which

is

a

Brit.

You

have

to

be

very

careful

how

you

say

that.

And

this

is

three

minutes

of

Neil

Mohan

from

where

that

quote

came

from

talking

about

podcasting

on

YouTube.

Let's

take

a

listen.

Podcasts

on

YouTube

are

really

like

a

perfect

example

of

what

feels

like

an

overnight

success.

But

it

was

many

years

in

the

making

really.

And

we

first

started

to

notice

podcasts

and

back

then

really

audio

podcasts,

like

as

a

thing

on

YouTube,

frankly,

without

us

doing

anything

like

no

product

innovation.

So

in

spite

of

ourselves

before

COVID

and

so

that

long

ago,

and

we

made

kind

of

two

or

three

sort

of

key

bets

around

podcasts.

One

was,

and

Covid

accelerated

this

was

that

people

actually

don't

want

to

just

listen

to

podcasts.

They

want

to

watch

podcasts.

They

want

to

watch

this

conversation

happening.

By

the

way,

is

this

going

to

go

on

YouTube?

I

hope

so.

There's

a

camera.

So,

like,

watching

that,

in

some

sense,

it's

sort

of

like

back

to

the

future,

right?

Like

in

some

sense

the

old

news

interview

shows

that

used

to

happen,

right?

And

so

people

really

want

to

watch.

So

video

was

a

really

big

bet

that

turned

out

to

be

true.

The

other

was

that

podcasting

from

a

podcaster's

perspective

is

not

just

about

sort

of

reliability

of

the

audience.

And

of

course,

we

have

that

with

subscribers

and

channel

subscribers

and

making

sure

that

the

audience

always

keeps

showing

up.

But

just

as

important,

if

not

more

important,

around

the

discoverability,

you

want

to

keep

growing

that

audience

every

single

day.

And

so

having

those

podcasts

hosted

on

YouTube

and

having

the

algorithm

find

new

audiences

for

you

every

single

day

turns

out

to

be

really,

really

powerful,

no

matter

how

big

of

a

podcaster

you

are.

And

then

the

third

piece

is

just

like

we

were

talking

about

earlier,

is

really

around

monetization.

Podcast

content

is

amazing

for

brands.

And

so

can

we

find

a

way

to

innovate

there?

How

do

we

get

past

sort

of

like

the

generic

table

reads

to

a

much

more

dynamic

ad

model

that

really

works

with

brands

and

brings

their

creativity

to

the

table?

So

that's

a

big

bet

for

me.

And

so

those

are

the

three,

three

areas

in

terms

of

how

I

think

about

the

success

of

podcasts

on

YouTube.

But

Neil,

I

want

to

point

out

that

YouTube

is

bringing

a

different

audience

to

podcasts.

I

have

the

podcast

charts

and

YouTube

started

to

do

podcast

charts.

So

this

is

so

interesting

to

me

on

the

top

podcast

by

platform.

So

the

week

this

was

done,

number

one

on

Apple,

good

hang

with

Amy

Poehler,

Spotify,

Joe

Rogan,

YouTube,

Joe

Rogan.

But

after

that,

it

all

becomes

completely

different.

And

there

are

things

I

hadn't

heard

of.

Kill

Tony

is

your

number

two

for

you,

Rotten

mango,

which

is

true

crime.

And

so

how

do

you

account

for

that

difference

and

so

on?

And

how

do

you

account

for

that

difference

of

what

podcasts

are

hitting

on

YouTube

versus

the

other

platforms?

My

view

is

all

of

those

podcasts,

all

of

those

podcast

genres,

talent,

et

cetera,

should

have

a

home

on

YouTube.

My

job

is

to

make

it

so

that

they're

all

successful.

There's

enough

of

an

audience

there

that

all

of

those

podcasters

can

ultimately

be

successful.

I

think

the

main

differentiator

is

we're

a

video

first

platform,

right?

So

podcasters

that

really

sort

of

lean

into

that

and

what

I

mean

by

that

is

not,

you

know,

highly

produced

new

show

style

production,

but

recognizing

that

having

sort

of

like

a

familiar

look

and

feel

for

your

audience

and

finding

a

way

to

act,

you

know,

so

much

of

communication

is

non

verbal.

Right.

So

really,

really

capturing

that.

Those

are

the

podcasts

that

tend

to

be

successful

on

our

platform.

So

Stephanie,

Stephanie

sue

of

Rotten

Mango

is

a

good

example.

Right.

So

she

had

a

podcast,

then

she

bet

on

video.

She

put

up

her

podcast

on

her

YouTube

channel

and

grew

her

subs

by

2

million

in

I

think

a

little

over

a

year

because

of

that

bet.

And

it

turns

out

that

genre,

like

true

crime

with

video

works

pretty

powerful.

Works

really

successfully

on

our

platform.

So.

Wow.

So

what

do

you

reckon

to

all

of

that,

Sam?

I

heard

him

talking

about

a

new

ad

monetization

model

in

the

middle

of

that.

Yeah,

look,

at

the

end

of

the

day

they

are,

as

he

said,

a

video

first

platform.

And

if

video

first

is

what

you

want

to

do,

then

please

crack

on.

It's

like

saying

when

TV

came

along,

radio

would

die.

We've

seen

this

analogy

before,

right?

Radio

exists,

TV

exists,

Podcasting

will

exist.

Video

podcasting

will

exist.

It

never

the

twain

shall

meet.

There

is

a

massive

crossover

for

high

end

production

companies

because

over

time,

I

think

if

we

were

doing

it,

let's

say

you

and

I,

the

extra

editing

that

we

would

have

to

do

through

video

editing

would

just,

you

know,

I

think,

suck

the

life

out

of

you,

James.

I

think,

you

know,

it's

hard

enough

when

you're

trying

to

put

out

a

podcast,

let

alone

a

video

podcast

because

of

all

of

the

cuts

and

the

lip

syncs

and

everything

else.

And

I

know

the

tools

are

getting

better,

but

I

don't

think

it

justifies

the

additional

time

and

effort.

But,

you

know,

yes,

true

crime,

new

shows,

the

news

agents

are.

And

the

rest

is

politics.

Two

shows

I

listen

and

sometimes

watch,

but

I

don't

really

watch.

I

don't

see

the

value.

Yeah,

but

good

luck

to

those

people

that

are

doing

it.

Yeah,

I

mean,

I

think

good

luck

to

those

people

who

are

doing

it

as

well.

I

thought,

I

thought

it

was

interesting

that

she,

that,

that

he

was

talking

about

having

a

podcast

and

then

she

bet

on

video

as

if

they

are

two

totally

different

things.

But

then

arguing

that

podcasts

exist

on

YouTube.

I

mean,

I

think

he

should

possibly

make

his

mind

up.

Is

a

podcast

on

YouTube

still

a

podcast

or

is

it

a

piece

of

TV?

And

if

it's

a

piece

of

TV,

well,

fine.

That's

absolutely

fine.

I

don't

have

a

problem

with

people

making

pieces

of

tv.

So,

you

know,

and

you

know,

just

from

that

point

of

view,

that

must

have

been

a

YouTube,

you

know,

filmed

for

YouTube.

And

you

can

tell

because.

Because

quite

a

lot

of

that

was

off

mic

because,

you

know,

you

wouldn't

necessarily

have

mic'd

that

up

for

a

podcast.

You

can

hear

the

full

interview

on

the

Ankler

podcast,

by

the

way.

And

I

think

that

that

probably

says

everything,

that

if

you're

making

a

video

show,

you

don't

necessarily,

you

can't

necessarily

put

audio

front

and

center.

You've

got

to

make

audio

and

video

front

of

center

as

well.

The

other

thing

that

I'm

surprised

at

is

that

the

CEO

and

editor

in

chief

Janice

Min

doesn't

understand

the

differences

between

the

podcast

charts.

Obviously

the

apple

chart

is

going

to

show

very

different

shows

because

the

apple

chart

is

a

trending

chart,

whereas

the

YouTube

chart

is

a

chart

based

on

watch

time.

So

the

longest

piece

of

video

wins.

So

obviously

they're

going

to

be

different,

Janice,

because.

Because

that's

how

it

works.

But

yeah,

there's

45

minutes

more

of

that,

which

I'm

not

going

to

listen

to

because

I

think

my

blood

would

boil.

But

he

was

talking

about,

you

said

new

forms

of

advertising

as

well.

What

did

you

think

he

meant?

Yes,

and

he

sort

of

decries

the

table

read,

as

he

called

it,

and

said,

you

know,

we

can

do

better

than

that.

We

can

do

dynamic,

you

know,

stuff.

But

I'm

not

quite

sure

what

he

means.

He

said,

how

do

we

get

going.

To

be

like

TV

break

ad

section

back

to

the

tv?

I

mean,

it

could

be,

couldn't

it?

I

mean,

that's

how.

I

mean,

you

could

do

that

on

a

YouTube

video

anyway

if

you

wanted

to.

You

know,

quite

a

lot

of

YouTube

videos

break

for

commercials

if

you

don't

pay

to

get

rid

of

them.

But

yeah,

I

mean,

his

actual

words

there.

How

do

we

get

past

the

generic

cable

reads

to

a

much

more

dynamic

ad

model

that

really

works

with

brands

and

brings

their

creativity

to

the

table?

I

think

you'll

find

that

that's

exactly

how

YouTubers

are

already

monetizing

their

content

and

that's

doing

sponsorships

and

sitting

down

and

working

with

some

of

the

brands.

So

I'm

not

quite

sure

what

he

means

other

than

dynamic

ad

model.

What

does

dynamic

ad

model

mean?

Does

it

mean.

Well,

this

is,

I

don't

know,

I.

Mean,

this

is

where

my

brain's

just

gone

to

TV

commercials.

Right.

Literally.

Will

they

stop

the

podcast,

have

a

break,

show

you

a

visual

ad

rather

than

a

host

red

ad

or

a

textual

based

table,

and

then

move

back

to

the

podcast

after?

I

think

that's

where

he

is

thinking

of

going.

Yeah.

Who

knows?

It's

it's

really

interesting,

really

interesting

to

hear.

That

was

obviously

a

tiny

amount

of

the

full

chat,

which

you

can

hear

for

full

on

the

Ankler

podcast.

And

obviously

podcasting

is

a

tiny

part

of

YouTube

and

I

think

that's

one

of

the

things

that

worries

me

about

podcasting

on

YouTube

is

that

it

is

a

tiny

little

part

of

YouTube

and

they

have

no

interest

or

care

whether

podcasting

succeeds

or

fails

on

the

platform.

Why

should

they?

They

didn't

care

about

it

actually

starting.

So

you

know

what

I

mean?

So

I'm

kind

of

there

thinking,

you

know,

well,

great

if

podcasting

is

a

success

on

YouTube.

Well,

fantastic

for

YouTube.

But

if

it's

not

a

success,

well,

they

don't

care

much.

So

yeah,

it's

content.

It's

content

to

sell

ads.

It

is

indeed

it's

content

to

sell

ads.

And

at

the

end

of

the

day

they've

got

plenty

of

other

people

making

cheap

TV

for

them.

And

that's

not

to

decry

what

YouTubers

are

doing.

There's

some

YouTube

shows

that

I

watch

which

are

really,

really

good,

but

clearly

made

on

an

iPhone,

but

that's

absolutely

fine.

So,

you

know,

but

that's

a

different

bit

of

content

than

podcasting.

So

anyway,

well,

there

we

are.

I

would

say

one

thing.

Okay,

just

to

balance

it

up.

We've

talked

in

the

past

about

parasocial

relationships.

This

is

where

the

listener

knows

more

about

the

host

through

the

osmosis

of

listening

over

time

to

an

episode

or

episodes.

And

so

they

will

know

that.

You

live

in

Australia,

James.

I

live

in

Marlow.

We

do

X,

Y

or

Z.

So

the

listeners

know

more

about

us

than

we

perceive.

And

that

parasocial

relationship,

I

guess

goes

one

stage

further.

When

you

add

video,

I

think

Neil

mentioned

it,

you

know,

a

lot

of

communication

is

non

verbal.

And

so

video

adds

a

non

verbal

interface

where

again,

that

parasocial

relationship,

I

guess

could

be

seen

as

a

stronger

relationship.

So

there

is

that

element

because

why

would

you

tune

in

to

watch

Rory

Stewart

and

the

rest

is

politics.

Just

to

see

two

talking

heads.

No,

I

agree,

I

agree.

Yeah,

absolutely.

And

you

know,

I

mean,

Anil

is

right

in

saying,

well,

you

know,

you

do

get

to

see

people's

facial

expressions

and

that

sort

of

thing.

And

yes,

you

do.

But

yes,

it

is

a

parasocial

thing.

It's

why

webcams

existed

on

radio

station

websites

all,

all

those

years

ago,

because

people

just

want

to

be

closer

to

the

voices

that

they

hear.

So

yeah,

so

I

guess,

I

guess

there

is

that

kind

of

side

to

it.

And

to

prove

Neil

right,

there

is

a

new

podcast

launching

With

Zoe

Ball

and

Joe

Wiley.

Persepolica

are

launching

it

in

it's

going

to

be

a

twice

weekly

show,

they

say,

which

will

be

fully

visualized

on

YouTube.

I

love

that

expression.

Oh,

fully

visualized.

It's

a

very

British

phrase

that

visualization.

It

comes

from

the

B

where

they

were

doing

visualized

radio

in

2005.

And

so

Zoe

Ball,

in

case

you

don't

know,

Zoe

Ball

and

Joe

Wiley,

two

of

the

biggest

radio

DJs

in

the

UK.

They

both

worked

for

a

long

time

on

BBC

Radio

2,

which

is

the

most

listened

to

radio

station

in

Europe.

And

so

they're

doing

a

lifestyle

show

with

Persafonica.

It's

starting

in

the

middle

of

July.

There's

no

name

for

it

yet

and

I'm

imagining

twice

weekly

they'll

be

copying

the

rest

is

plan

of

having

a

full

episode

followed

by

Q

and

A

because

that's

the

easiest

way

to

make

a,

you

know,

a

twice

weekly

show

because

you

can

record

all

of

that

at

the

same

time.

But

yes,

being

fully

visualized

on

YouTube,

I

thought

it

was

interesting

that

they

would

come

out

with

that

from

the

get

go.

But

obviously

from

Persifonica's

point

of

view,

they

need

to

go

out

and

sell

the

ads

that

go

around

that

I.

Guess

now

Australia

where

you

reside

is

better

than

the

UK

I

have

here

as

a

title.

How

come

I

don't

know

by

agree.

Well,

sometimes

I

do.

I

think

the

weather

might

be

better

but

do

tell.

Absolutely

correct.

Yes.

Well,

better

than

the

UK

in

terms

of

podcast

listening.

It

turns

out

The

Infinite

Dial

Australia

2025

came

out

yesterday.

Edison

Research

and

CRA

and

podcasting

now

mainstream

media

in

Australia.

In

the

UK

it's

51%

of

the

British

population

listens

to

it's

always

51%

change

listens

to

a

podcast

every

month.

51%.

Yes,

I

see

what

you've

done

there.

Yes,

yes,

too

soon.

Whereas

here

In

Australia

it's

52%.

Yay,

we've

beaten

the

old

country

and

we're

approaching

the

US

which

is

55%.

Really

good

to

see

the

Infinite

Dial.

We

only

have

the

top

level

results

so

far,

so

we

don't

have

all

of

the

detail

quite

yet,

but

some

good

numbers

coming

out

of

that.

There

was

another

number

which

I'm

just

going

to

remind

myself

of

by

opening

another

window

which

is

the

top

audio

sources

in

cars.

The

Infinite

Dial

asked,

do

you

use

the

following

in

cars?

84%

say

that

they

listen

to

the

radio

in

the

car.

36%

say

they

listen

to

podcasts

in

a

car

with

50%

listening

to

music

via

streaming

apps,

36%.

So

that's

a

third.

Over

a

third

of

people

consuming

podcasts

in

cars,

which

is

pretty

good.

Hello

to

you

if

you're

driving.

So,

yeah,

I

just

thought

interesting

data

from

the

Infinite

Dial.

Also,

by

the

way,

interesting

data

from

the

digital

news

report,

which

has.

We'll

talk

about

it

in

a

global

fashion

in

just

a

second.

But

the

Australian

version

of

that

came

out.

It's

put

together

by

the

University

of

Canberra

down

here.

They

have

a

chapter

on

podcasting.

And

there's

a

couple

of

very

interesting

stats

in

there.

One

of

those

stats

is

that,

well,

9%

of

Australians

say

they

use

podcasts

for

news

in

the

past

week.

That

probably

tells

you

that

there

are

many

other

places

of

getting

news.

But

the

number

that

I

thought

was

very

interesting,

59%

of

Australians

are

willing

to

pay

for

news

podcasts.

59%.

So

here

we

are.

You

know,

Sam,

one

day

we

will

talk

about

payment

of

podcasts

and

we

will,

one

day

when

we

also

talk

to

Oscar,

I

believe,

from

Fountain,

but

59%

of

podcast

listeners,

news

podcast

listeners

are

willing

to

pay

for

them

in

some

way,

shape

or

form,

which

I

thought

was

really

interesting.

It's

the

highest

number

in

the

world.

The

US

is

at

46%.

But

even

that

is

still

really

high.

So,

yeah,

I

thought

that

was

interesting.

I

think

it

goes

back

to.

I

think

it's

a

trend.

I

think

when

we

look

back

over

2025,

I

think

we'll

see

more

and

more

quality

content

going

behind

paywalls,

more

and

more

people

willing

to

pay.

We've

got

trained

through,

I

don't

know,

Netflix,

through

Prime,

through

Apple

tv,

of

paying

for

content.

And

I

think

people

are

saying,

okay,

going

back

to

that

point

about,

you

know,

video,

it's

not

quick,

it's

not

easy,

it

is

expensive

if

you

do

it

right.

And,

you

know,

no

one

wants

to

throw

that

out

the

front

door

for

free.

Or

if

they

are

throwing

out

the

front

door,

they

want

to

ensure

they've

got

a

strong

ad

monetization

behind

it

to,

you

know,

continue

doing

it.

Otherwise

you're

just

going

to

have

pod

fade

or

what

would

be

the

equivalent

video

fade?

I

don't

know

what

would

that

be.

But

I

think

it's

great

to

see

that

trend

being,

I

suppose,

validated.

Right.

Which

is

something

that

was

in

my

gut

that

that's

where

the

trend

is

going.

And

it's

good

to

see

that

now.

There's

some

validation

in

the

data

as

well.

But

that's

the

way

it's

going

as

well.

No,

it's

good

to

end

up

seeing

that

there's

one

other

piece

of

data

here

from

Australia,

which

was

the

Australian

podcast

Ranker,

which

has

come

out.

Average

weekly

listenership

is

the

highest.

It's

the

same

number

as

in

March,

but

the

highest

ever,

which

is

7

million.

And

if

you

ever

hear

people

saying

that

you

can't

launch

a

new

show

in

this

day

and

age,

then

they're

wrong

because

Mushroom

Case

Daily

from

the

abc,

although

it's

actually

been

going

for

a

year,

it

hit

number

five

last

month,

up

from,

you

know,

180something

or

other,

with

more

than

3.3

million

downloads

in

the

month

it's

covering.

There's

a

case

going

on

at

the

moment

which,

because

for

rather

complicated

technical

reasons,

this

podcast

is

an

Australian

podcast.

I

have

to

be

very

careful

what

I

say.

But

it's

a

continuing

case

of

somebody

called

Erin

Patterson

who

says

she's

innocent

of

killing

family

members

with

poisonous

mushrooms.

And

that's

all

that

I

can

really

say

on

that.

But

Mushroom

Case

Daily

is

really

interesting

and

that's

a

real

hit

all

of

a

sudden

because

the

court

case

has

actually

started

and

is

going

on.

So.

Yeah,

so

I

just

thought,

you

know,

interesting

seeing

a

successful

show

coming

from

essentially

nowhere.

Yes.

It's

got

a

bit

of

promotion

on

the

telly

and

on

the

radio,

and

that,

by

the

way,

is

audio

only.

You

mentioned

the

digital

news

report.

They've

got

some

other

data

as

well.

What

have

they

said?

Yes,

so

the

digital

news

report

is

actually

a

piece

of

global

work.

Global

with

a

small

G.

It's

from

the

Reuters

Institute.

One

part

of

the

data

looks

at

the

changing

landscape

for

news.

Podcast

is

all

about

news,

you

know,

obviously.

And

there's

a

particular

segment

which

looks

specifically

at

the

us,

UK

and

Norway

for

some

reason,

which

I've

not

yet

fully

understood.

But

in

terms

of

what

it

says

in

the

US,

the

data

suggests

that

YouTube

is

the

main

access

point

for

news

podcasts

in

the

US.

In

the

country,

15%

say

that

they

access

a

news

podcast

weekly.

But

the

really

interesting

numbers

were

Joe

Rogan

and

Tucker

Carlson.

Joe

Rogan

reached

in

the

week

after

the

inauguration.

Just

that

week,

Joe

Rogan

reached

22%.

So

that's

over

one

in

five

of

everybody

in

the

U.S.

according

to

their

sample,

at

least.

Which

is

massive,

isn't

it?

I

mean,

that

is

a

massive,

massive

podcast.

Or

is

it

a

massive,

massive

YouTube

video?

Discuss,

but

receipt

earlier.

Indeed.

So

that

was

interesting,

but

also

interesting

what's

going

on

in

your

neck

of

the

woods

in

the

uk.

Although

the

percentage

of

weekly

news

podcast

listeners

in

the

UK

is

half

that

of

the

US

interestingly.

The

BBC,

which

has

been

going

for

over

100

years

and

is

the

place

where

you

go

to

find

News.

In

the

UK

they

are

at

number

four

and

number

five

in

terms

of

podcasting,

AmericasT

is

at

number

four,

NewsCast

is

at

number

five.

Those

should

surely

be

the

other

way

around,

you

would

argue.

But

there

are

three

independent

shows

at

the

top.

Goal

hangers.

The

rest

is

Politics

number

one,

Global's

the

Newsagents.

I

know

you're

a

big

fan

at

number

two

and

Politics

Joe

at

number

three.

They

are

all

by

the

way

available

in

video

as

well

as

in

audio,

which

I

think

says

quite

a

lot.

But

I

find

it

fascinating

that

the

BBC

is

underperforming

so

badly

when

it

comes

to

UK

podcasting.

Overseas

it's

a

little

bit

more

different,

but

in

the

uk,

yeah,

really

interesting.

I

think

the

BBC

has

got

a

massive

problem

in

its

balanced

broadcasting

that

it

has

to

do

right.

I

think

it

can't

make

opinion

and

I

think

it

sits

on

the

fence

too

often.

Whereas

the

podcast

shows

like

the

Rest

is

Politics

and

news

agents

can

take

a

stance,

they

can

take

a

position,

you

might

not

agree

with

it,

but

they

can

be

much

more

unbiased

in

this

or

maybe

should

I

say

more

biased

in

their

positioning.

Yes,

yes,

less.

Less

unbiased,

more

biased

in

their

positioning.

But

I

think,

you

know,

again,

one

of

the

other

things

is

you

and

I,

when

we

were

growing

up,

there

would

have

been

the

David

Dimble

bees

of

the

day.

There

would

have

been

other

shows

that

were

weekend

shows

that

were

interview

based

on

politics.

You

hardly

see

those

anymore.

And

yet,

you

know,

the

news

agents

are

knocking

one

out

every

day,

maybe

two

a

day,

you

know,

depending

on

the

news

cycle.

The

BBC

can't

cope

with

that,

they

can't

compete

with

that.

And

I

just

don't

think

that

mainstream

media,

even

in

the

USA

can.

I

just

saw

Tucker

Carlson

interviewed

Ted

Cruz.

Great

interview.

I

don't

think

you

would

have

seen

that

on

any

mainstream

media.

Fox

would

have

made

him

go

right,

CNN

would

have

made

him

go

left.

And

he

actually

took

a

really

strong

position

against

Ted

Cruz

and

it

made

it

a

really

good

interview.

How

many

people

live

in

Iran,

by

the

way?

I

don't

know

the

population

at

all.

No,

I

don't

know

the

population.

You

don't

know

the

population

of

the

country

you

seek

to

topple?

How

many

people

living

around

92

million.

Okay,

yeah.

How

could

you

not

know

that?

I

don't

sit

around

memorizing

population

tables.

Well,

it's

kind

of

relevant

because

you're

calling

for

the

overthrow

of

the

government.

Why

is

it

relevant

whether

it's

90

million

or

80

million

or

100

million?

Why

is

it.

Because

if

you

don't

know

anything

about

the

country.

I

didn't

say

I

don't

know

anything

about.

Okay,

what's

the

ethnic

mix

of

Iran?

They

are

Persians

and

predominantly

Shia.

Okay,

you

don't

know

anything

about

Iran,

so.

Okay.

I

am

not

the

Tucker

Carlson

expert

on

Iran.

You're

a

senator

who's

calling.

You're

the

one

who

claims.

No,

you

don't

know

anything

about

the

country.

You're

the

one

who

claims

they're

not.

Trying

to

murder

Donald

Trump.

You

know,

you're

the

one.

I'm

not

saying

that.

Who

can't

figure

out

if

it

was

a

good

idea

to

kill

General

Soleimani.

And

you

said

it

was

bad

they're

trying

to

murder

Trump.

Yes,

I

do.

Because

you're

not

calling

for

military

strikes

against

them

in

retaliation.

They

really

believe

that

carrying

out

military

strikes

today.

You

said

Israel

was

right

with

our

help.

And

so

I

think.

I

think

mainstream

media's

got

a

big

problem.

And

I

think

we've

said

in

the

past,

YouTube

could

be

the

new

TV,

as

in

everyone

has

a

channel.

Well,

heavens,

what

does

that

mean,

I

wonder?

We

should

wait

and

see.

And

newscast

is

a

great

listen

from

the

BBC,

but

it's.

I

think

it's

still

a

bit

BBC

when

you're

listening

to

it.

It's

a

very

relaxed

listen

and

blah,

blah,

blah.

It

suffers

from

the

tyranny

of

video

in

that

it's

filmed

now

for

the

tv.

It's

visualized,

I

should

say,

for

the

tv.

So,

yeah,

so,

yeah,

it'd

be

interesting.

There

is

definitely

a

paper

from

somebody

on

why

the

BBC

has

failed.

So

in

terms

of

news

podcasting

in

the

uk,

and

I'd

love

to

find

somebody

to

put

that

together

at

least

one

day,

but

still.

But

there

we

are.

And

I

know

that

quite

senior

people

at

the

BBC

do

tune

into

this

very

podcast.

So

who

knows,

we

might

even

get

them

on.

Hello?

That

would

be

nice.

Yes.

Could

they.

Can

they

be

unbiased

in

their

opinion

of

the

BBC?

No,

of

course.

Who

knows?

Right,

let's

move

on

and

talk

downloads.

Yes.

Is

the

download

finally

dead?

James?

Using

downloads

for

measurement

is

a

business

liability,

says

Bumper.

What

do

they

mean?

Yeah,

I

think

they

are

bang

on

the

money

here.

So

they

say

that

downloads

are

decreasing

for

many

podcasts,

which

is

correct.

They

are.

They're

going

down.

But

downloads

are

largely

disconnected

from

actual

podcast

consumption.

So

Bumper

says.

And

again,

that's

absolutely

correct.

Two

things

that

have

happened

over

the

last

couple

of

years,

which

has

really

proved

what

Bumper

is

saying.

One

of

them

is,

you

remember

the

Big

Apple

iOS

17

automatic

podcasts

download

thing

in

mid

2023,

which

wiped

millions

of

dollars

off

the

balance

sheets

of

podcasters.

That

was

an

incredible

risk

for

podcasters.

But

there's

of

course

another

one

going

on

right

now,

which

is

all

of

a

sudden

podcasters

are

seeing

far

less

downloads

from

Spotify

because

of

course,

if

you

upload

video

to

Spotify,

it

wipes

your

RSS

audio.

So

all

of

a

sudden,

actually

lots

of

people

are

seeing

far

fewer

podcast

downloads

because

of

YouTube

and

because

of

Spotify

video.

So

I

think

they're

absolutely

right

in

saying

that

downloads

are

decreasing.

We

need

a

better,

you

know,

a

better

way

of

measuring

how

podcasts

work.

Of

course

they're

recommending

the

Bumper

dashboard,

which

is

very

good.

But

yeah,

I

think

they

are

absolutely

right.

The

longer

that

we

stick

with

downloads,

which

is

an

inherently

messy

number,

then

the

more

the

liability

is

going

to

be,

I

think.

What

do

you

think?

Yeah,

look,

it's

first

party

data.

I

think

we've

put

this

one

through

the

ringer

several

times.

It's

listen

time,

percent

completed,

value

paid.

Right.

And

value

paid

may

not

be

the

one

that

anyone

uses

today,

but

I

think

it

will

be

in

the

future.

But

listen

time

or

watch

time

are

certainly

the

metrics

that

I

think

people

should

be

now

looking

at.

The

problem

comes

back

to,

as

we've

said

on

numerous

occasions,

that

that

data

isn't

available

to

hosts.

So

hosts

are

reliant

on

downloads

as

their

analytics

dashboard.

And

so

they're

promoting

that

still

as

a

metric.

If

they

could

get

first

party

data,

then

I

assume

that

they

would

deprecate

the

download,

but

they

can't.

Right,

so.

And

we

know

that

John

Spurlock's

put

forward

a

proposal.

There

are

many

other

ways

of

doing

it.

So

I

think,

you

know,

right

now,

the

big

behemoths,

Apple,

Spotify

and

YouTube

have

first

party

data.

They

have

volumes

of

it.

And

I'm

pretty

sure

they're

sharing

that

with

advertisers

directly,

which

is

again,

one

of

their

competitive

advantages

that

they

have

right

now.

Yeah,

indeed.

I

find

it

really,

really

interesting.

And

one

of

the

things

that

I'm

sort

of

slightly

nervous

about

in

terms

of

the

industry's

requirements

for

data

is

firstly

looking

at

downloads

and

secondly,

and

I

know

that

we've

just

been

talking

about

it,

the

amount

of

people

who

listen

to

podcasts,

because

that

51

or

53%

number,

it's

a

lovely

number,

but

that

number

is

going

to

plateau

soon.

And

what

we

want

is,

we

want

a

number

that

we

can

still

see

going

up

and

it's

not

going

to

be

reach

total

people

because

that

is

inevitably

going

to

slow

down

and

stop.

What

we

need

to

be

focusing

on

is

time

spent

listening

first

and

foremost,

what's

the

overall

time

spent

listening

of

podcasts.

And

I'm

really

interested

in

seeing

whether

there's

any

data

out

there

which

has

been

measuring

that

over

the

last

10,

15

years

or

so.

Because

wouldn't

that

be

great

if

you

could

actually

see

that

hopefully

going

up?

Maybe

it's

not

going

up,

in

which

case

that

would

be

a

slight

concern,

wouldn't

it?

But

yeah,

I

think

every

report

that

we,

you

know,

you

just

mentioned

the

rankers

and

you

mentioned

all

of

the

infinite

dials,

everything

seems

to

be

going

in

the

right

direction.

Look,

I,

I

say

it,

it

may

not

be

factually

correct,

but

I

say

podcasting

is

a

new

radio

and

YouTube

is

a

new

TV.

I

mean

it

doesn't

mean

that

I

think

radio

is

gone.

I

just

think

radio

distribution

can

be

done

through

live

podcasting

mechanisms

like

lit.

And

I

think

we'll

see

more

of

that

because

I

think

DAB

and

FM

is

becoming

much

more

expensive.

And

we're

seeing,

I

think

we've

talked

about

this,

you

know,

radio

stations

in

the

us,

the

UK

and

Western

Europe

certainly

are

merging

the

local

radio

station

into

the

national

one

for

cost

saving

purposes

more

than

anything

else,

but

also

for

advertising

reach.

And

so

as

those

local

radio

stations

become

extinct,

I

guess

is

the

best

way

of

putting

it,

they

will

repopulate,

I

think

personally,

in

a

web

based

format

and

then

they

will

distribute

over

digital

mechanisms

rather

than

the

traditional

transmitters.

And

so

I

think

what

we

are

seeing

is

a

shift

in

change

in

people's

listening

behaviors.

We're

going

much

more

to

getting

our

news

from.

We

just

said

it.

From

podcasts

or

from

video.

We're

getting

our

information,

our

sports

from

those

channels.

I

think

the

traditional

radio

and

TV

transmitter

networks

are

going

to

be

suffering.

I

wonder

whether

there's

data

around

that.

You're

the

radio

man.

Is

radio

seeing

a

decline

in

the

listenership?

I

mean

radio,

interestingly,

radio

really

isn't.

I

mean

the

figures

came

out

again

from

Australian

commercial

radio

this

week

and

guess

what?

More

people

listening

to

commercial

radio

than

ever

before

in

Australia.

That

may

be

because

they're

only

are

more

people

in

Australia

than

ever

before.

She's

probably

the

reason.

But

I

think,

I

mean

interestingly,

and

this

again

makes

the

point

very

well,

the

number

of

people

listening

to

the

radio

is

not

actually

going

down

particularly

fast.

It

really

isn't.

The

number

of

people

is

Staying

relatively

still.

But

the

time

spent

listening

is

going

down

and

is

falling

off

a

cliff

for

many

people,

particularly

younger

audiences.

So

it's

the

time

spent

listening

again

comes

back

to

that

rather

than

overall

people

is

fine.

But

actually

you

sell

advertising

based

on

time

spent

listening

because

you

sell

advertising

based

on

we've

got

9

minutes

or

12

minutes

of

ads

an

hour

and

that's

how

you

earn

your

money.

And

podcasting,

frankly,

is

not

too

different.

And

so

therefore

time

spent

listening

turns

into

money.

And

that's

where

radio

is

having

trouble

and

frankly,

where

broadcast

TV

is

also

having

trouble

is

that

people

are

still

watching

it,

but

they're

watching

it

far,

far

less

than

they

ever

used

to.

So,

yeah,

I

think

it

is

all

fascinating

in

terms

of

where

the

future

is

going,

but

I

do

think

that

we

should

stop

looking

at

total

amounts

of

people.

We've

proved

the

point.

Now

it's

mainstream,

it's

over

50%.

Let's

move

on

and

start

talking

about

time

spent

because

that's

the

important

thing

that

really

matters.

Let's

whiz

around

the

world.

James,

over

to

the

Nordics.

Weirdly,

I

know

that

the

digital

report

included

Norway,

first

time

ever

that

I've

seen

something

like

that.

But

let's

go

back

to

the

Nordics.

They

saw

a

record

high

amount

of

household

spending

on

audio.

So

this

is

money

spent

on

audio

media?

Yes,

and,

and

it's

grown

20%

year

on

year.

It's

the

average

monthly

spend

on

music,

audiobooks

and

podcasts

and

it's

up

to

170sec,

which

is

about

$18

per

household.

Now,

that's

an

average,

obviously

in

terms

of

monthly.

There

are

plenty

of

households

who

aren't

spending

anything.

There

are

plenty

of

households

who

like

this

household

who

are

spending

rather

more

than

that

on

audio.

But

yeah,

$18

per

household.

But

I

think

the

point

there

is

it's

grown

20%

year

on

year.

And

it's

something

that,

you

know,

assuming

that

there's

nothing

particularly

weird

about

people

in

Sweden,

and

I've

been

there,

there

isn't

really,

that

should

be

the

same

in

quite

a

lot

of

other

countries

as

well.

Yeah,

again,

I

think

we've

hinted

at

it

in

the

past

ourselves

that,

you

know,

quality

content

is

moving

behind

paywalls.

We've

said

that

already.

But

also

I

think

people

are

beginning

to

say,

well,

this

is

Spotify's,

you

know,

overall

strategy.

If

you

look

at

it,

you

know,

we're

going

to

have

music,

audiobooks,

concert

tickets,

podcasts,

subscriber

based

podcasts.

And

I

think

that

is

the

only

way,

actually,

I

think

Spotify

will

Get

out

of

the

hole

that

they're

building

or

digging

themselves

into.

There

was

a

report

we

talked

about

a

few

months

ago

which

said

that

the

price

elasticity

that

Spotify

has

is

about

five

more

dollars.

So

if

they

increase

the

price

of

their

premium

subscription

by

around

$5,

I

think

it

was

some

crazy

high

number.

About

60%

of

people

would

stop

subscribing

to

Spotify.

And

so

if

they

know

that,

and

I'm

sure

they

do,

then

they're

going,

well,

how

can

we.

It's

called

Bill

Shock.

The

bt,

British

Telecom

used

to

use

that

term.

Quite

often

they

would

break

up

your

bill

into

multiple

smaller

chunks

so

that

you

didn't

feel

that

it

was

one

big

number

that

you

got

hit

with.

And

I

think

Bill

Shock

is

what

Spotify

is

trying

to

avoid,

which

is,

oh

my

God,

my

bill's

now

$30

a

month

or

$35

a

month

for

my

subscription.

Can

I

break

it

into

smaller

components

where,

oh,

I've

just

bought

an

audiobook.

But

that's

not

part

of

your

subscription.

Oh,

I've

just

bought

this

ticket.

No,

not

still

part

of

your

subscription.

It's

not

the

overall

bill

from

Spotify.

And

I

think

if

we

are

seeing

households,

you

know,

willing

to

pay

more

for

digital

content,

what

does

this

mean

for

advertising?

You're

the

one

who

observed

this

with

Mayor

Prohofnick,

which

is

if

people

are

paying

to

subscribe

and

have

no

ads,

and

I

hardly

see

ads,

by

the

way,

then

who

are

the

advertisers

actually

reaching?

Are

they

reaching

the

people

who

can't

afford

or

do

not

wish

to

have

a

subscription?

And

are

the,

those

people

the

ones

they

really

want

to

reach?

And

therefore,

it

seems

like

a

weird

dichotomy,

I'm

paying

for

not

to

have

ads.

But

you're

paying

for

your

ad

to

reach

people

who

may

not

be

able

to

afford

your

product.

Yeah,

yeah,

it

is

a

weird

one.

And

by

the

way,

if

you

look

at

Amazon

prime

in

the

US

which

has

a

ad

funded

option,

I

think

they're

all

ad

funded

now,

aren't

they?

Amazon

Prime.

I

think

you

have

to

have

ads

on

all

of

that.

You

pay

extra

to

now

not

get

ads.

Oh,

you,

you

pay

extra

to

get,

to

get

rid

of

the

ads.

Oh,

well,

there

you

go.

So

the,

the

version

with

the

ads

launched

with

not

very

many

ads

at

all.

And

very

quietly

over

the

last

couple

of

months,

they've

doubled

the

amount

of

ads

that

are

on

there,

which

I

think

says

quite

a

lot.

But

yeah,

I

mean,

from

my

point

of

view,

just

seeing

the

amount

of,

of

money

spent

on

audio

is

good.

It

should

be

good

data

for

true

fans

to

show

that

people

will

spend

money

in

that

way

and

good

data

for

those

of

us

who

ask

for

money

as

well.

If

you're

a

fan

of

this

show,

you

should

become

one

of

our

power

supporters.

We've

got

19

at

the

moment.

Weekly.podnews.net

is

where

to

go

armed

with

your

credit

card.

The

Internet's

money,

so

we

know

there's.

A

ceiling

to

your

subscription.

We

know

that

the

household

purses

are,

are

going

to

not

be

infinitely

stretched.

I

mean,

okay,

if

you're

super

rich,

$20

or

$30

or

$50

makes

no

difference,

but

we're

looking

at

the

average.

So

I

think

there

is

a

point,

and

I've

seen

the

trend

with

my

own

children

where

they

will

do

a

pay

as

you

go.

So

if

I

watch

the

behavior

of

my

20

year

olds,

they

will

subscribe

to

Netflix

for

a

series

and

then

unsubscribe.

They

will

subscribe

to

Paramount

and

then

unsubscribe.

So

that

what

they're

doing

is

they're

fundamentally

trying

to

build

a

pay

as

you

watch

model

rather

than

a

pay.

And

then

when

there's

nothing

to

watch,

I'm

still

paying

and

my

subscription's

rolling

over.

So

they're

learning

because

they

have

limited

funds

that

the

best

way

of

doing

it

is

a

pay

as

you

go

model.

And

I

think

the

way

that

podcasting

2.0

is

trying

to

build

a

new

monetization

model

which

is

streaming

based.

So

I

want

to

stream

an

episode

and

I

only

want

to

pay

for

what

I

consume,

which

goes

back

to

listen

time

as

well.

I

think

they

all

conflate

together,

how

much

did

I

listen?

That's

what

I'm

willing

to

pay

for,

and

that's

what

I

want

to

actually

show

is

my

consumption

as

opposed

to

I

pay

in

advance

for

everything

or

I

pay

for

the

full

episode.

I

think

we're

seeing

a

slight

change

again,

I

think

because

the

window

or

the

ceiling,

sorry,

I

should

say

for

payments

will

come

to

a

point

where

people

say,

I

can't

afford

it

anymore,

so

I'll

just

pay

for

what

I

consume.

Yeah.

No,

indeed,

indeed.

I

find