The

Pod

News

Weekly

review

with

Buzzsprout.

With

Buzzsprout,

Start

podcasting.

Keep

podcasting.

I'm

very

excited.

I've

got

two

very

special

guests

on

the

show

today.

It's

Adam

Curry

and

Dave

Jones,

known

as

the

Pod

father,

the

Pod

sage,

and

they're

gonna

be

talking

about

the

Holy

app.

Welcome,

chaps.

Hello,

Adam

Curry,

co

inventor

of

podcasting.

You've

got

a

brand

new

app

out.

It's

called

the

Godcaster.

What

is

the

Godcaster

and

why

did

you

want

to

bring

it

out?

Sam,

first

of

all,

it's

good

to

be

here.

A

rare

you,

me

and

Dave

moment.

I

love

that

a

lot.

Godcaster

came

about

over

a

year

ago.

Someone

who

had

seen

me

speak

at

the

Spark

Media

conference

in

Houston

came

to

me

and

he

said,

you

know,

I've

got

this

thing.

It's

not

an

app,

it's

a

service.

It's

for

radio

stations.

And

I'm

kind

of

in

the

middle

of

determining

whether

I

need

to

do

a

technology

upgrade.

I

hear

all

these

cool

things

about

the

podcast

index

and

about

the

new

features

that

you

have.

Can

you

tell

me

about

it?

So,

as

Dave

and

I

always

do

when

it

comes

to

podcast

index

and

2.0,

I'm

happy

to

talk

to

anybody,

particularly

someone

who's

developing

against

the

API

that

we

make

available.

So

I

chatted

with

him

and

then

he

came

back

again.

He

had

some

more

questions,

and

by

the

third

or

fourth

time,

his

name

is

Gordon

Marcy.

By

the

third

or

fourth

time,

I

had

started

to

put

together

what

was

going

on.

And

he's

been

in

the

radio

business

all

of

his

life

at

big,

big

networks

like

Sal

and,

oh

goodness,

Ambassador,

there's

a

big

content

network,

and

these

are

all

faith

based

broadcast

organizations

and

stations.

And

the

solution

he

had

was

a

podcast

player

for

radio

stations.

And

as

I

was

talking

with

him

more

and

more,

I

learned

that

there's

a

real

conundrum

with

radio.

Not

like

we

didn't

know

it.

I

mean,

over

20

years

ago,

we

figured

that

podcasting

would

eventually

disrupt

radio.

And

that

moment

has

arrived.

And

that

arrived

to

me

through

the

faith

based

radio

stations.

There's

about

4,000

of

them

in

the

United

States

alone.

And

the

problem

is

they

are

literally

riding

their

over

the

air

listenership

into

heaven.

Average

age

is

74,

and

everyone's

already

moving

to

streaming

online.

Most

of

the

radio

stations

have

a

button

that

says

listen

live,

and

they're

seeing

more

and

more

of

their

audience

go

there.

But

now

here

comes

the

second

issue

with

radio.

And

this

is

not

just

faith

based

radio.

It's

all

radio

is

that

local

programming

has

gone

away.

Most

of

this

is

nationally

syndicated

content,

which

also

is

available

on

a

podcast.

So

what

radio

stations

were

doing

is

they're

airing

this

programming

and

it's

not

just

praise

the

Lord

stuff.

I

mean,

Glenn

Beck

is

considered

a

faith

based

podcaster.

You

know,

there's

Dave

Ramsey,

you

know,

there's

a

lot

of

different

content

out

there,

you

know,

news

and

just

maybe

a

biblical

worldview

in

many

things,

but

it's

a

big

variety

of

content.

And

so

the

station

would

say,

you

know,

here's

this

next

program.

It's

focus

on

the

family

as

an

example.

And

focusing

the

family

would

say,

you're

saying

to

focus

on

the

Family

on

kcbh

and

go

to

Focusonthefamily.com

and

subscribe

to

our

podcast.

So

the

stations

are

literally

sending

their

audience

away

to

places

where

they

can

get

podcasts.

And

people

are

either

listening

there

on

their

website,

they

might

be

subscribing

in

an

app.

Many

of

the

radio

stations

have

apps

with

not

much

more

than

a

listen

live

and

support

the

station.

Interesting

part

of

faith

based

radio

in

the

United

States,

it's

pretty

much

value

for

value.

The

stations

ask

for

support,

and

between

the

stations

and

the

content

programming,

there's

been

this

issue

for

40

years

of

how

do

I

know

that

someone

was

listening

to

your

program

on

my

radio

station,

gave

you

a

donation,

but

I

don't

know

about

it?

And

so

we're

supposed

to

share

revenue.

In

some

cases,

the

big

content

providers

will

buy

the

airtime

again.

They

need

to

know

where

did

it

come

from?

And

it's

been,

it's

been

this

big

problem

that's

been

discussed

even

at

the

National

Religious

Broadcasters

Conference

where

I

was

last

week

with

5,000

people

show

up.

It's

been

this

issue

where

they

just

can't

figure

out

what

they

call

attribution.

So

as

I

was

thinking

about

it,

I'm

like,

wait

a

minute,

this

can

all

be

easily

solved

with

a

lot

of

these

2.0

features

that

we've

developed

over

time.

And

why

don't

we

create

a

backend

and

a

player

and

an

API

for

the

inevitable

apps

so

that

you

can

have

a

live

stream.

We

know

we

have

the

lit

tag.

You

can

have

as

many

podcasts,

a

whole

management

interface,

and

really

let

these

radio

station

program

directors

and

people

who

know

how

to

package,

market,

et

cetera,

create

a

place

for

all

of

the

programming

and

then

have

the

audience

go

to

their

website,

support

the

show

through

their

website,

which

we're

doing

with

the

funding

tag.

It's

incredible.

We'll

get

into

it

with

Dave.

But

the

oh,

wow.

Moment

of

all

these

broadcasters

who

said,

wait

a

minute,

now

the

station

knows

that

someone

hit

donate

and

we

know

it

as

well.

Why,

yes.

Oh,

you've

solved

a

40

year

old

problem.

Seems

simple

to

us.

Sometimes

you

just

need

some

fresh

thinking.

So

as

we

were

designing

the

product

and

Dave

will

get

into

a

lot,

he

had

so

many

genius

ideas.

We

really

made

this

whole

thing

about

first

party

data,

understanding

what

people

are

doing

in

the

player,

whether

it's

in

a

podcast

app,

because

you

can

subscribe

to

the

station

basically,

or

whether

their

own

app,

you

can

really

see

what's

working.

And

this

is

another

thing.

Well,

in

podcasting

in

general,

we've

never

really

had

that.

And

the

excitement

came

both

from

the

stations

and

from

the

content

producers

who

also

are

just

looking

at

download

numbers

and

they're

saying,

wait

a

minute,

now

I

can

see

how

well

my

program

is

performing

in

Phoenix,

Arizona,

if

someone

dropped

out

after

eight

minutes.

But

meanwhile

in

Albuquerque,

New

Mexico,

it's

doing

much

better.

So

this

all

encompassing

solution

kind

of

came

about.

And

you

know,

and

this,

we

were

just

ideating

on

this.

And

then

Dave

Gordon

and

I

formed

a

partnership

called

Godcaster

at

Godcaster

fm.

And

we've

put

this

into

the

marketplace.

And

I

think

as

of

yesterday,

we

now

have,

I

want

to

say,

249

stations

who

are

using

Godcaster

and

also

now

content

providers

like

these

big

ones,

Focus

on

the

Family.

They're

on

thousands

of

stations.

They're

tagging

their

programming

at

the

end

with

to

support

Focus

on

the

Family,

go

to

khcb,

the

KHCB

website,

or

use

the

app

and

support

us

there.

So

we've

really

created

a

backend

service

with

detailed

measurement

and

statistics

of

what

is

actually

happening.

And

I

was

at

NRB

with

Gordon

this

past

week

at

the

National

Religious

Broadcasters

Conference,

and

we

just

got

nothing

but

incredible

feedback

and

new

customers.

And,

you

know,

it's

interesting

that

this

came

from

this

direction.

Any

radio

station

could

use

it,

obviously,

but

for

Dave

and

I,

it

has

the

added

advantage

of

we're

doing

this

for

Jesus.

So

we're

super

happy

about

it.

Okay,

look,

I've

got

two

questions

before

I

go

to

Dave.

First

of

all,

Adam,

why

can't

they

just

drive

traffic

to

the

website

or

drive

traffic

to

the

usual

suspects,

you

know,

the

Spotify's

and

the

Apples

and

do

dynamic

ad

insertion

and

get

their

money

that

way?

What's

stopping

them

doing

it

in

what

we

consider

the

traditional

1.0

model

of

podcasting?

Why

couldn't

they

just

do

it

that

way?

Yeah,

that's

a

good

question.

Well,

first

of

all,

these

stations

are

not

really

doing

it

for

the

money.

They

need

money

to

survive,

but

they're

doing

it

to

spread

the

gospel.

That's

their

main

mission.

The

big

part

of

this

is

every

single

radio

station

has

a

relationship

with

a

church

or

multiple

churches

in

their

local

community.

So

now

they

are

starting

to

add

local

inserts.

You

know,

go

listen

to

Pastor

Jimmy's

podcast

on

the

KHCB

website.

So

you

want

them

who

understand

the

radio

stations

are,

you

know,

they

really

understand

the

local

market,

packaging,

marketing

to

that

local

market.

And

while

they

still

have

these

big

megaphones,

why

not

build

up

that

local

property

so

that

they

can

do

a

lot

more

localized

content,

give

people

a

feeling

again

that

that

station,

digital

or

otherwise.

But

really

moving

towards

digital

is

their

all

encompassing

place.

And

what

they

have

is

that

50%

of

their

users

are

moving

towards

an

app,

and

not

a

podcast

app,

but

towards

an

app

of

their

own.

And

there's

a

large

portion

is

just

going

to

the

website

and

clicking

Play.

And

this

is

something

I've

noticed

as

well.

We've

been

talking

about

it

on

podcasting

2.0,

about

kind

of

the

waning

of

the

interest

in

a

traditional

inbox

based

podcast

application.

So

we

want

to

give

them

the

tools

to,

to

what's

being

highlighted

and

not

just

adding,

adding

a

feed,

but

really

having

a

management

system

where

they

can

see

what's

working.

And

the

way

we

have

it

now

is

you

can

literally

see

in

the

live

streaming

stats,

you

can

see

someone

listening

to

that,

or

a

hashed

IP

address,

someone

listening

to

that,

then

hearing

a

promo,

going

over

to

the

station

app

or

the

webpage

and

listening

to

the

podcast

that

was

promoed.

And

so

really

everybody

wins

in

this

model.

And

again,

it's

all

a

value

for

value

based

model.

So

now

they

can

work

together

on

fundraising

for

both

content

producers

for

the

local

producers.

And

I

feel

churches

are

content

factories.

And

they're

not

just

doing

a

weekly

session

on

Sundays.

They've

got

men's

breakfast

ministries,

they

got

youth

ministry,

where

I'm

kind

of

in

charge

of

our

local

godcaster.

We've

got

the

high

school

kids,

they're

doing

a

podcast

about

the

Fredericksburg

Billy's,

which

is

our

women's

basketball

team

who

are

doing

well

in

the

Nationals

now.

So

you're

really

bringing

back

that

community

feel

through

a

community

interface,

whether

it's

on

the

website,

in

the

app,

or

if

you

want

to,

to

subscribe

in

a

modern

podcast

app.

Nice.

Okay,

so

it's

control,

it's

monetization

tools,

it's

administration,

all

the

things

and

some

of

the

podcasting

2.0

capabilities

that

we've

all

been

working

on.

Nice,

Dave.

Hello.

How

are

you?

I'm

good,

Sam.

Now,

Adam,

you've

known

for

how

long?

Oh,

gosh,

15.

Fifteen

years.

Okay.

Yeah.

So

Adam's

come

to

you

on

several

occasions

to

say,

hey,

I've

got

a

great

idea

for

a

business.

How

about

you

do

it

with

me?

The

last

one

being

the

podcast

index,

obviously.

So

what

did

you

think

when

he

said,

I've

got

this

great

idea

for

Godcaster,

and

what

did

you

think?

Yeah,

let's

do

it,

or

oh,

my

God,

not

again.

There's

always

a

little.

An

equal

amount

of

both

involved

in

every,

in

every

one

of

those.

But

my

standard

answer

to

Adam

whenever

he

says,

hey,

let's

do

so

and

is

yes,

and

then

we'll

figure

out

actually

how

to

do

it

later.

So

I

just

always

answer

yes

first

and

then

figure

out

later

if

it's

actually

possible,

you

know,

so,

yeah,

the

same,

same

thing

here.

I

love

it.

That

Jim

Carrey

film,

yes

man,

where

he

says

yes

to

everything.

Yeah,

exactly,

exactly.

Okay,

so

let's,

let's

take

a

little

step

back.

How

long

is

it

taking

you

to

build

this

platform

and

where

did

you

start?

I

mean,

you've

got

a

blank

piece

of

paper,

you're

looking

at

it

and

you're

going,

how

do

I

build

this

thing?

So

what

did

you

do?

Yeah,

what,

you

know,

look

at

what.

What

Adam

said

was

we

sort

of

took

over

an

existing

product

with,

with

Gordon's

product

that

was

called

Glory

Stone.

And

so

I

determined

early

on

that

I

was

just

going

to

rebuild

that

thing

from

scratch.

It

was

an

older

platform.

I

mean,

it

still

worked

well.

It

was

an

older

platform

that

had

been

sort

of

upgraded

over

the

years

to

have

sort

of

more

modern

features,

but

the

core

of

it

was

still

sort

of

an

old

lamp

based

application,

PHP

MySQL

that

was

just

showing

its

age.

So

I

just

determined

to

build

from

scratch

and

initially

replicate

all

the

features

that

we

thought

that

the

current

customers

couldn't

live

without.

And

then

at

the

same

time,

sort

of

weave

in

the

newer

stuff

that

we

knew

we

were

going

to

be

needing

to

bring

the

product

up

to

what

we

wanted

it

to

be.

So

it

took,

I

mean,

it

was

rapid,

lots

of

just,

you

know,

late

night,

early

morning

coding

sessions

to

get

this

thing

up

and

running

in

about

five

months.

So

it

went

from

zero

to,

you

know,

launched

in

five

months

to

be

ready

for

discussion

about

it

and

selling

at

NRB

for

people

who

would

want

it.

So

that

was

the

time

frame.

You

know,

we

pretty

much

hit

Everything

we

wanted

to

achieve

by

then.

But

that's,

you

know,

to

say

that

it

was

an

enjoyable

build

would

not

be

entirely

accurate

because

it's

rush,

rush,

rush.

But

at

the

same

time,

I

think

the

way

me

and

Adam

have

always

worked

has

kind

of

been

that

way.

We

just

go,

go,

go,

go,

go

as

fast

as

possible,

and

then

trying

to

hit

a

target.

And

then

at

the

end,

we

kind

of

sit

back

and

say,

okay,

where

are

we

at?

Let's

go

clean

up

the

mess.

Let's

go

polish

things

up

here.

And

this

kind

of

thing.

So

that's.

We're

kind

of

used

to

working

that

way.

And

we

really.

We

were

building

it,

you

know,

building

the

airplane

in

flight,

to

be

honest,

you

know,

because

we

had

customers,

there

were

existing

customers

who

had

migrated

over,

and

it

would

literally

be.

The

customer

would

say,

hey,

you

know,

my

window

popped

out

here.

I'm

about

to

get

sucked

out

of

the

airplane.

And

we

go,

dave,

we've

got

it.

We're

losing

passengers,

man.

So

it

was.

It

is

the

way

we've

worked.

There's

nothing

more

fantastic

than

working

with

live

customers.

There's

also

nothing

more

scary

with

working

with

live

customers.

And

I

just

want

to

say

I've

worked

with

Dave

on

many

projects.

Some

things

have

just

been

for

us.

Some

things

have,

well,

podcast

index,

which

is

the

most

successful.

But

of

course,

we

have

zero

income

from

it,

which

was

never

the

intent.

The

things

that

Dave

builds

are

rock

solid.

The

systems

stay

up.

And

he's

never

really

done

a

user

interface.

He's

done

user

experience

ux,

but

really

a

beautiful

UI

is

something

he's

never

done.

And,

man,

he

knocked

it

out

of

the

park.

It

really.

It's

a

beautiful,

beautiful

product.

Yeah.

No,

Congratulations

to

you

both.

Now,

so

what

is

the

platform?

Because

it's

not

what

I

would

have

thought

you

would

have

gone

for

originally,

which

would

be

a

native

iOS

app.

That's

what

we're

all

told

to

do.

Go

and

build

for

the

app

stores,

you

know,

Android,

blah,

blah,

blah.

That's

where

podcasting

is.

And

actually,

to

be

fair,

when

you

look

at

the

data

from

companies

like

Buzzsprout

or

OP3,

and

you

look

at

device

and

you

look

at

platform,

it's

generally

mobile

iOS,

so

you

haven't

built

the

native

app

yet.

So

why

did

you

make

the

decision

to

go

and

build

what

Adam

has

nicely

called

a

universal

web

app

rather

than

a

progressive

app?

It's

a

little

like,

with

everything

that

we

do,

it's

a

little

hard

to

explain.

That's

sort

of

a

theme

that

runs

through

almost

every

product

that

Adam

and

I

build

is

it

takes

a

little

bit

of

thinking

outside

the

box.

And

there's

some

cross,

some

overlap

here.

The

Venn

diagram

between

the

podcast

index

and

Godcaster

is

pretty,

you

know,

pretty

overlappy.

So

one

thing

is,

when

we

started

the

podcast

index,

we

started

that

to

support

podcast

apps,

to

give

them

a

backend.

And

what

we

said

at

the

beginning

was,

we're

never

going

to

create

a

podcast

app.

So

that

also

comes

into

play

here.

This

really

isn't

a

podcast

app.

This

is

something

really

different

than

that.

The

thing

about

the

linear

to

digital

transformation

for

radio

is

that

if

all

you

do

is

just

transfer

that

broadcast

linear

audience

to

a

website

player,

you've

really

done

nothing.

The

beauty

of

digital

is

that

it's

available

everywhere

through

multiple

channels.

So

that's

really

the

concept

that

we

brought

from

the

very

beginning.

The

problem

with

Glorystone,

the

old

player,

was

that

it

was

purely

just

a

website

player

and

it

was

no

different

than

a

podcast

app,

but

you

just

had

to

go

to

this

radio

station's

website

to

do

it.

So

that's

just

as

restrictive

as

broadcast,

maybe

even

more

so,

you

know,

and

so

what

we

did

was

we

said,

okay,

you're

gonna

have

a

web

player

because

that's

helpful

to

the

customer

people,

their

audience

wants

that.

We're

gonna

build

a

web

player

that's

installable

on

any

radio

station's

website,

and

they

can

plug

in

all

the

different

content,

all

the

different

podcasts

that

they

play

on

air.

They'll

plug

that

in

to

make

an

on

demand,

what's

essentially

an

on

demand

guide

in

a

player

on

their

website.

But

every

player

they

build

also

spawns

an

RSS

feed

that

has

all

of

those

shows

in

it.

And

that

RSS

feed

is

branded

to

the

station.

So

the

station

gets

their

own

RSS

feed

that

will

hold

all

of

the

podcast

content

and

gets

essentially

redistributed

back

out

to

the

podcast

index

and

other

directories

so

that

now

these

customers

or

listeners

can

subscribe

not

to

just

focus

on

the

family.

They

can

subscribe

to

KHCB

itself.

And

by

doing

that,

they're

going

to

get

focus

on

the

family

and

all

of

KHCB's

other

national

content

and

KHCB's

local

content.

They're

going

to

get

all

of

this

stuff

in

a

single

feed

that

they

can

then

subscribe

to

in

a

normal

podcast

app,

something

like

True

Fans,

Apple

Podcast,

Overcast,

Podverse,

Podcast

Guru,

all

the

2.0

apps.

It's

a

standard

podcast

feedback

with

2.0

namespace

enhancements

in

it.

So

that's

the

thing

that

we

took

to

it

is

we,

yes,

our

player,

we're

proud

of

it

and

we're

glad

that

it

works

well.

But

we're

just

as

happy

for

people

to

not

even

use

our

player

at

all,

but

instead

to

subscribe

to

these

radio

stations

podcast

feeds

in

their

own

podcast

app.

Because

that's

all

you're

doing

is

you're

now,

you're

allowing

your

listener

as

a

station,

you're

allowing

your

listener

to

listen

to

you,

including

your

live

broadcast.

Because

we

use

the

live

item

tag.

Now,

they

can

listen

to

you

in

their

most

convenient,

preferable

way,

which

is

the

podcast

app.

And

for

the

station

side

of

things,

they

get

stats

on

their

player,

they

build

out

their

player,

their

on

demand

guide

and

all

that

kind

of

stuff,

and

then

they

install

the

player

on

their

website,

but

they're

getting

stats

for

the

player

itself

plays,

you

know,

listens,

engagement,

that

kind

of

thing.

But

because

it

has

an

RSS

feed,

they're

also

getting.

There's

a

separate

section

in

their

stats

dashboard

that

gives

them

stats

about

podcast

apps.

So

they're

getting

stats

on

their

feed

too.

They're

getting

the

traditional,

you

know,

downloads,

where

the

downloads

are

coming

from,

that

kind

of

thing.

So

they

can

also

see

the

metrics

that

they're

getting

from

podcast

apps

as

well.

So

it

really

doesn't

matter

who's

listening

to

your

content

and

where.

We

want

to

accommodate

all

of

that

and

then

give

them

some

stats

that

will

show

them

what's

happening.

In

addition

to

that,

if

I

can

just

add,

we

also

expose

an

API

for

the

increasing

number

of

stations

who

just

have

their

own

app.

They

agree

with

you,

Sam.

They're

like,

yes,

we

need

an

app,

not

just

iOS

but

Android.

They're

using

multiple

known

companies

like

JCAP

and

Subsplash

and

Xperia,

I

think,

is

another

one.

Some

have

a

custom

developer

who's

doing

stuff

for

them.

And,

you

know,

now

they

have

a

real

piece

of

functionality

in

there

because

you

can

build

your

godcaster

player

however

you

want

it

with

native

player

elements

and

native

view

elements.

And

I

think

the

godcaster

itself

is

that

we're

the

back

end.

So

we're

just

the

plumbing.

We're

letting

you

program

and

your

lineup

and

do

all

of

that

stuff

and

get

your

analytics

on

the

back

end.

You

do

it

in

one

place

once

it

goes

to

wherever

you

want

it

to

go.

And

so

as

it

turns

out,

the

universal

app,

which

I've

coined

the

term,

used

to

be

progressive

web

app,

but

I

call

it

the

universal

app.

That

really

is

a

great

stepping

stone

for

a

lot

of

the

stations

and

also

increasingly

churches

who

I

think

are

radio

stations

in

themselves.

So

they

can

just

put

a

web

view

in

there

and

at

least

have

the

Godcaster

player

in

there,

even

though

it

won't

function

the

way

you'd

like

it

to

on

Android

Auto

and

CarPlay.

But

as

Dave

points

out,

I

mean,

I've

been

using

my

own

Godcaster

station

even

just

to

manage

my

own

podcast

subscriptions.

And

I

love

it

because

I

use

podcast

gurus,

kind

of

my

daily

driver,

and

I

pop

it

right

in.

I've

got

my

hello

Fred

feed

and

I

can

listen

to

my

live

signal,

I

can

listen

to

any

of

the

podcasts

I

subscribe

to.

And

of

course

all

of

the

value

for

value

passes

right

through.

So

all

of

that

just

works.

So

it's

really

an

all

encompassing

system

which

is

meant

to

replace

a

lot

of

pieces

of

that

linear

broadcast

infrastructure.

Now,

I

can

see

how

you've

built

it

now

and

I

can

see

the

direction.

The

question

I've

got

is

one

of

the

things,

I

think

I

sent

you

one

of

my

long

winded

emails,

but

it

was

to

do

with

the

publisher

feedback.

And

again,

when

I

look

at

how

with

my

CEO

of

Trufan's

hat

on,

I

get

a

feed

for

hello

Fred,

for

example,

and

it

has

multiple

radio

stations

within

the

same

feed.

And

then

what

I

wanted

to

do

was

actually

I

broke

that

back

out

into

a

radio

feed,

a

publisher

feed,

for

want

of

a

better

word,

and

just

demoed

how

it

could

be

presented

as

a

publisher

feed,

an

RSS

standalone

feed

that

the

podcast

index

could

ingest

and

apps

like

Fountain

support

it

and

we

support

it

at

Trufans.

And

then

you'd

still

have

the

clean

single

RSS

feed

for

each

individual

radio

station.

So

that

if

I

wanted

to

go

and

look

at

previous

episodes,

I'm

looking

back

at

their

previous

episodes.

So

I'm

keeping

the

shows

individually,

but

I'm

creating

this

aggregated

feed

using

the

publisher

feed

technology

that

we

curated

in

podcasting

2.0

to

actually

then

see

the

station

as

a

complete

entity

with

all

of

their

shows.

And

look,

it's

horses

for

courses,

but

that

was

one

of

the

ideas

that

I

threw

back

at

you.

And

I

don't

know

if

that's

something

that

resonated

with

you

or

that

was

something

like,

no,

we're

not

going

down

that

road

because

we

can't

get

it

into

Spotify,

we

can't

get

it

into

Apple,

we

can't

get

it

into

because

they

don't

support

publisher

feed.

So

it

makes

no

sense

to

create

that

feed

when

we

have

to

do

it

in

the

traditional

RSS

feed

structure.

Well,

you

know

that's

never

stopped

us

at

all,

Sam,

is

the

fact

that

Spotify

or

Apple

or

any

of

those

guys

don't

do

something

that's

not.

I

don't

even

think

about

it

in

those

terms

because

they

will

eventually.

They'll

all

start

doing

all

this

stuff

eventually,

because

they'll

have

to.

So

that

doesn't

stop

me

at

all.

Publisher

feeds

are

definitely

on

the

roadmap

for

sure.

This

sort

of

sprint

to

just

get

a

product

going,

you

know,

is

one

tenth

of

the

actual

roadmap

of

the

stuff

we

want

to

do.

We

really

haven't

even

gotten

to

the

cool

stuff

yet,

you

know,

so

that's,

that's

really.

Yeah,

because,

I

mean,

we

support

the

live

tag,

we

support

funding,

support

the

value

tag,

location

chapters,

we

pass

all

that

stuff

through

and

then

we

add

some

of

it

as

well

for

like,

location

tag.

But

there's

also

stuff.

We

also

support

Pod

Ping,

of

course,

for

live

broadcasts

and

all

that

kind

of

thing.

Because

if

we're

going

to

be

pumping

out

a

feed

to

true

fans,

well,

true

fans

needs

to

know

when

that

stuff

goes

live.

And

we

need

to

be

telling,

you

know,

because

one

of

the

things

you

can

do

on

the

player

is

a

listener

can

hit

the

follow

button

and

it

just

gives

them

a

list

of

podcast

apps.

So

if

they,

if

they

choose,

you

know,

true

fans

or

podcast

guru

or

whatever,

you

know,

we

need

to

be

able

to

provide

that

data.

So

a

lot

of

that

stuff

is

interdependent

and

we

built

it,

built

that

out.

But

then

we

also

have

this

other

huge

list

of

things

we

have

to

support,

and

that's

going

to

be

what

comes

next.

So

we

have,

you

know,

we're

going

to

be

supporting

sound

bites,

transcripts,

publisher

feeds,

all

the

value

time

splits.

Just

pretty

much

all

this

stuff

is

on

the

to

do

list.

And

the

publisher

feed

is

great

because

what

we're.

What

we're

allowing,

and

through

various

partnerships

that

we're

still

developing

with

native

app

developers

and

live

stream

panees

and

that

kind

of

thing,

through

these

various

partnerships,

we're

going

to

be

able

to

allow

the

radio

stations

to

make

it

easier

to

push

their

own

content

out

through

the

traditional

podcast

hosting

platforms

that

we

always

have

had

good

relationships

with.

Buzzsprout,

RSS.com,

blueberry,

all

these

guys,

and

then

even

in

the

newer

2.0

focused

hosts

as

well.

So

we're

going

to

leverage

all

those

relationships

we've

built

over

the

last

nearly

five

years

to

help

the

radio

stations

build

up

their

own

content

catalog,

and

then

we'll

be

able

to

put

all

that

stuff

into

A

publisher

feed

like

you're

talking

about,

then

the

radio

station

has

their

own

master

feed

that

shows

their

brand

everything,

and

then

underneath

that,

all

of

their

content.

So,

yeah,

I

think

you're

just

sort

of

anticipating

where

we're

headed

as

well.

Adding

to

what

Dave

said,

I

think

that

they're

very

positive

for

the

podcast

namespace

because

when

we

say

subscribe

to

this

radio

station's

feed,

so

you

get

all

the

show

episodes,

et

cetera,

we

show

preference

over

the

modern

podcast

apps

right

now

for

the

main

reason

that

it

has

the

lit

tag.

So

I

think

it's

going

to

be

a

very

net

positive.

You'll

see.

Certainly

Apple

will

have

to

look

at

the.

At

the

live

item

tag

because

they're

going

to

be

losing

market

share

to

podcast

apps

that

already

have

this

built

in.

So

it's.

I

really

see

that

as

a.

As

a

huge

net

positive

for.

For

2.0,

as

in

general,

but

also

for

the

apps.

Yeah,

I

think.

I

think

Apple

definitely.

I

mean,

if

I

have.

I

know

this

is

not

the

prediction

show,

but

I

think

Apple

will

support

the

live

item

tag

within

two

years.

I

mean,

you

know,

I'm

giving

myself

two

years

just

because

they

move

slow.

But

we

know

that

they

watch

the

podcasting

2.0

project.

We

know

that

they

watch

what

we're

doing,

and

sometimes

they

reach

out

and

ask

for

things.

So

we

know,

we

know

that

they

are

involved

in

their

own

special

Apple

way.

And

so

I

feel

like

within

the

next

couple

years,

a

live

item

tag

support

in

the

Apple

podcast

apps

will

definitely

be

a

thing.

Right

now,

when

you

click

the

follow

button

on

a

station's

player,

your

Apple

podcast

is

at

the

bottom.

You

know,

Spotify

can't

even

be

on

there

because

they

don't

allow

that

kind

of

interaction.

So

they're

not

even

on

the

list.

But

everything

at

the

top,

you

know,

the

order

of

preference

is

the

podcasting

2.0

apps

at

first

and

that

support

things

like

Live

Atom.

Because

of

that,

we

need

that

to

be

a

complete

experience.

And

then

Apple

is

still

on

there

because

they

have

such

big

market

share,

but

they're

at

the

bottom

just

because

they

don't

support

live.

And

the

live

experience

for

a

radio

station

is,

gosh,

that's

90%

of

the

experience

is

being

able

to

listen

live

podcast

apps.

But

I

think

they

will

do

it

for

sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I

mean,

we

talk

about

comments,

we

talk

about

interactivity,

we

talk

about

the

ability

to

do

that

in

a

live

item.

I

mean,

Friday

night

is

great

with

you

two

guys

getting,

you

know,

all

the

boosts

in

and,

you

know,

and

all

the

777

harps

and

all

that

stuff

coming

through

now.

One,

one

thing

we've

had

a

discussion

on

in

the

past

is

Shoutcast,

Icecast,

hls,

are

you

going

to

be

the

provider

of

the

live

item

tag

service,

the

server

as

well

as

the

management

platform?

Let

me

just

jump

in

here

and

address

that

and

other

things.

So

the

answer

is,

the

short

answer

is

no.

We're

not

interested

in

providing

hosting,

we're

not

interested

in

providing

streaming

services,

we're

not

interested

in

providing

app

building

services.

What

this

is

doing,

I

think

this

is

a

huge

opportunity

for

our

hosting

partners.

A

lot

of

these

radio

stations

and

a

lot

of

content

providers

use

Omni,

and

Omni

is

going

to

have

to

catch

up

and

I

don't

know

if

that's

even

within

their

DNA

to

do

this.

So

we

exclusively

want

to

work

with

partners

where

we

can.

And

we

are,

literally,

this

is

what

we're

good

at.

We're

good

at

the

plumbing,

we

do

have

a

beautiful

web

player

and

it's

perfect

for

what

it's

intended

for,

but

we

really

see

it

as,

okay,

here's

your

digital

signal.

Where

do

you

want

it

to

go?

Yeah,

I

mean,

I

can

see

with

the

API

you

can

even

do

Alexas

and

Pod

Homes

and

anything

else.

It

doesn't

have

to

just

be

iOS

and

native

Android

apps.

So

what's

next?

Now

you've

got

it

out

the

front

door,

you've

got

this

excitement.

Adam,

do

you

see

the

funding

tag

being

the

primary

mechanism

for

monetization,

but

do

you

envisage

a

time

where

people

will

naturally

understand

what

a

wallet

is,

will

understand

what

a

micropayment

is,

will

understand

what

V4V

actually

means,

and

start

to

use

that

way

of

monetizing

radio

stations.

So

moving

forward,

the

most

excitement

right

now

is

about

the

funding

tag.

That

has

just

been

mind

blowing

for

this

particular

group.

Because

of

the

attribution

of

a

donation

on

both

sides,

there's

a

lot

of

talk

about

integrating.

Unlike

traditional

radio,

there's

really

no

competition.

Everybody

wants

to

work

together

because

if

someone

donates,

then

the

tide

rises.

All

boats.

So

the

attribution

is

one.

Everyone

wants

to

see

it

tied

into

CRM

databases

for

the

conversion.

At

the

same

time,

it's

really

beautiful

to

see

that

the

stations

are

just

as

excited

to

allow

the

content

producers

to

log

in

to

see

the

station's

first

party

data

for

their

program.

Not

all

of

it,

obviously,

so

that

they

can

really

understand

how

they're

performing

and

moving

forward

for

the

product.

There's

a

whole

nother

group,

which

I

think

I've

Said

before

is

churches.

Ever

since

COVID

every

single

church

in

America,

but

probably

worldwide,

has

become

a

real

content

factory.

They've

upgraded

their

gear,

they've

learned

how

to

do

podcasts.

And

so

we,

we

don't

want

to

be

necessarily

in

competition

anywhere,

but

we'll

serve

anybody.

Even

if

you

just

have

a

top

40

radio

station.

We

actually

had

a

conversation

about

that.

We're

okay

if

you're

a

top

40

station,

you

want

to

use

it

or

an

all

talk

that

may

be

more

secular

regarding

value

for

value.

There's

one

group

who

has

a

very

young

chief

Innovation

officer,

it's

Hope

Media.

And

if

you

look

at

their

offering

and

they

have

many

stations

throughout

the

U.S.

he

was

the

only

one

I

felt

comfortable

demonstrating

value

for

value

to

and

it

just

blew

his

mind.

And

so

I'm

hopeful

that

we'll

set

up

a

pilot

project.

A

lot

of

these

stations

also

work

very

closely

with

artists

with,

you

know,

different

musical

recordings.

They

are

looking

forward

to,

you

know,

they're

looking

towards

creating

a

whole

new

music

genre

that

would

be

value

for

value.

And

it

all

comes

down

to

education,

as

we

know.

But

there's

a

lot

of

interest

from

them.

I'm

very

excited

about

that.

And

in

general,

this

group,

and

maybe

it

applies

to

radio

across

the

board,

there's

really

no

farm

team,

there's

no

next

generation

that

has

been

cultivated

to

do

radio.

So

they

see

these

things

as

an

opportunity

to

bring

in

a

whole

new

group

who

will

understand

connecting

your

wallet

to

a

podcast

app,

connecting

your

wallet

to

any

kind

of

app,

who

will

understand

that

micropayments

is

a

very

viable

way

forward.

And

the

music

industry,

contemporary

Christian

music

artists,

they

definitely

are

very

interested.

There's

some

big

names

who

we've

been

in

touch

with,

they

all

would

like

to

try

it

out.

Because

the

same

with

the

traditional

secular

music

industry,

no

one's

making

any

money.

So

they

want

to

figure

out,

how

can

I

continue

to

be

producing

records

without

only

doing

it

through

merchandise

sales

and

concerts.

Yeah,

every

time.

When

it

comes

to

the

religious

sector

or

spiritual

sector

or

whatever,

you

want

to,

however

you

want

to

categorize

that.

I

mean,

value

for

value

is

just

in

that

DNA

from

the

very

beginning.

It's

just

the

way

the

culture

in

that

culture,

it

makes

so

much

sense.

Everything's

donation

based.

Everything

is,

please

support

us

if

you're

getting

something.

I

mean,

all

of

that

content

from

the

earliest

days

of

Christian

radio

or

religious

radio

has

always

been

a

value

for

value

concept.

You

give

the

product

away

because

you

have

this

bigger

mission

and

then

you

just

ask

people

to

support

you.

And

so

it

all

like

that

is

the

most

easy

fit

to

pull,

you

know,

to

bring

that

in

because

it

makes

sense

to

that

mindset

from

day

one.

So

with

all

of

this

now

out

in

the

open

and

you've

got

a

clear

pathway

forward,

just

very

quickly

you've

got

this

other

project,

you

know,

podcast

index

2.0.

Where

do

you

see

that

taking

shape

in

2025?

What's

going

on

in

your

heads

that

you

think,

you

know,

we're

healthy,

this

is

happening.

Where

are

your

thoughts

on

it

currently?

You

know,

I

would

say

that

I

think

we're,

I

think

we're

in

a

good

place.

The

podcast

index

and

the

namespace

have

sort

of

hit

a,

they've

hit

a

point

where

things

are,

people

are

comfortable

with

the

technology

I

think

now.

And

so

we

just

had

a

big

discussion

this

week

about

the

images

tag

and

about

how

to

re

engineer

that

thing

to

be

good.

And

so

now

we're

looking

at,

I'm

processing

things

to

Lee

as

how

do

we

need

to

sort

of,

of

shape

the

way

we

do

tags

and

the

way

we

do

namespace

work

going

forward

to

sort

of

fit

this

new

model?

You

know,

in

the

beginning

it

was,

nobody

knew

what

we

were

doing,

nobody

understood

any

of

this

stuff.

You

know,

we

had

time

to

deal

with

pent

up

demand

for

new

features

for

the,

you

know,

for

15

years

worth

of

content.

So

we

were

just

going

to,

you

know,

go

typical

fashion,

just

go,

go,

go,

go,

go

as

fast

as

we

can.

And

that

really

has

changed.

And

so

now

things

are

at

a

slower

pace.

And

I

think,

you

know,

going

forward,

I

think

we're

probably

going

to

focus

on

just

one

or

two

things

with

each

phase

of

the

podcast

namespace

because

there's

still,

I

mean

there's

still

dozens

of

apps

out

there

that

don't

even

support

a

single

tag.

You

know,

Even

though

there's

600,000

feeds

out

there

that

support

the

Podcasting

2.0

namespace,

you

know,

there's

maybe

more

than

that.

I

haven't

counted

in

a

while.

There's

tons.

So

much

content

that

has

the

Podcasting

2.0

namespace

tags

in

it.

But

many,

many

podcast

apps

just

still

don't

even

support

number

the

very

first

one,

something

easy

like

transcripts.

So

I

think

there's

no

need

to

just

rush,

rush,

rush

anymore.

But

at

the

same

time

I

think

we

need,

it's

good

because

now

we

can

just

slow

down,

have

our

focus

on

one

thing

and

then

with

the

namespace

and

then

on

the

index

side,

I

think

we're

shifting

focus

to

decentralizing

because

we

don't

want

to

just

become

another

Apple

with

a

directory

that

everybody's

dependent

on,

even

though

it's

open.

So

we

want

to

decentralize

that

as

we

can.

I

think

we're

getting

to

the

point

in

the

index

and

the

namespace

where

we're

a

mature

technology

and

now

our

focus

gets

to

shift

to

a

sort

of

mature,

more

important

things.

My

job

has

always

been

to

tell

you

what

should

be

happening

now,

and

it

usually

comes

true

in

10

years.

And

I

never

make

money

on

it.

So

I'm

always

the

last

to

the

trough.

Join

that

club,

Adam.

Join

that

club.

I

feel

your

pain,

Sam.

So

what

Dave

said

about

decentralizing

the

index,

we

have

kind

of

said

from

the

get

go,

the

podcast

index,

our

job

is

to

eliminate

ourselves.

And

that

means

whether

it's

distributed

hash

space

or

however

we

wind

up

doing

it,

and

there's

some

amazing

things

being

done.

I

would

love

to

see

Pod

Ping

integrated

more.

I

did

a

presentation

at

NRB

in

the

ballroom

and

I

showed

the

tiles.podping.org

and

people

just

their

minds

were

boggling.

Like,

wait

a

minute,

this

exists?

How

does

that

happen?

How

do

I

get

my

podcast

updating

that

way?

And

with

Godcaster

itself,

I

hope

that

we

can

show

a

path

for

developers.

So

in

a

way

you're

doing

this

with

true

fans

is

to

show

that

you

don't

have

to

just

create

another

podcast

app.

You

can

create

an

experience

or

an

interface

or

a

service

for

a

group

of

people

who

want

to

use

podcast

technology.

And

specifically

podcasting

2.0,

since

there's

such

a

rich

environment.

I

mean,

even

LN

Beats

is

a

great

version

of

that.

That

is

only

for

the

music

side

and

for

the

music

show.

So

this,

I

think,

is

where

we

can

have

great

success

instead

of,

you

know,

as

I

lovingly

call

the

podcast

industrial

complex,

focusing

on

what

share

does

this

app

have?

Well,

that's

going

to

remain

kind

of

the

same

for

a

long,

long

time.

But

meanwhile,

as

we've

proven

with

Value

for

Value

in

general,

you

can

make

a

living,

you

can

make

your

product

successful

with

a

smaller

demographic

in

this

highly

connected

world.

So

certainly

on

the

Podcasting

2.0

podcast,

which

is

the

name

came

from,

although

it

became

kind

of

its

own,

its

own,

its

own

beast

is

to

show

more

of

that.

And

as

more

of

these

experiences

are

developed,

I

think

you'll

see

the

rest

of

the

industry

come

along

with

that.

Adam

Curry,

Dave

Jones,

I

could

talk

to

you

for

hours

on

this,

but

thank

you

very

much.

Now,

where

would

anyone

go,

Adam,

for

getting

more

information

about

the

app

itself?

Well,

this

is

Godcaster

FM

Godcaster

fm.

And

really

appreciate

the

work

that

you

do,

Sam,

and

that

James

does.

Power,

as

we

call

it.

Power

is

one

of,

you

know,

is

certainly

one

of

my

weekly

listens.

I

wish

we

would

have

coordinated

better

for

this

interview

when

we

all

would

have

had

a

glass

of

red

wine

to

go

with

it,

because

we

know

that

that's

usually

how

you're

listening

to

our

show.

Absolutely.

The

only

way.

And

Dave,

anyone

wanting

to

help,

get

involved

with

it,

maybe

give

you

some,

you

know,

get

involved

with

the

API.

Where

would

they

go

for

any

of

that

stuff?

Just

reach

out

to

me

and

we

can

help

them

out

on

that.

And

the

thing

about

Godcaster

is

under

the

hood,

sort

of

double

under

the

hood.

It's

all

podcast

index.

So

anybody

who

is

already

familiar

with

the

index

and

the

way

that

works

can

help

here,

too.

So

we're

sort

of

eating

our

own

dog

food

in

that

way.

And

on

behalf

of

the

community,

just

for

me,

I'd

like

to

say

thank

you

to

you

both

publicly

for

all

the

work

you've

done

for

the

podcast

index.

It's

massively

appreciated.

You

may

not

hear

it

all

the

time,

but

just

know

that