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News

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Buzzsprout.

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podcasting.

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podcasting.

We

joined

today

by

Anneliese

Nielsen.

Now

she

is

head

of

podcast

strategy

and

development

at

Pacific

Content.

Anneliese,

hello.

How

are

you?

Good,

thanks.

So

let's

start

off.

Last

year

Lower

street

bought

Pacific

Content

and

you're

at

Pacific

Content.

You

were

there

at

Pacific

Content

when

it

was

purchased.

What's

changed?

What's

life

been

like

now

as

part

of

Lower

street

within

the

Pacific

Content

bubble?

Well,

in

a

lot

of

ways

things

are

similar.

I

would

say,

like

my

role

is

pretty

similar

across

both

companies.

So

I

sit

sort

of

between

marketing

and

sales.

I

put

together

proposals

for

clients,

I

write

our

newsletter.

I

do

a

lot

of

thought

leadership

kind

of

content

and

plan

events

for

Lower

Street.

So

that's

maybe

something

that's

new

for

me

at

Lower

street,

but

still

sort

of

within

the

same

wheelhouse

is

what

I

was

doing

at

Pacific

Content.

And

I

would

say,

like

the

difference

between

the

two

companies

or

like

where

we're

at

now.

You

know,

Pacific

Content

was

previously

owned

by

a

very

large

media

conglomerate,

so

that

definitely

impacted

sort

of

day

to

day

business

and

now

part

of

a

scrappy

startup.

So

there's

a

lot

more

flexibility

that

comes

with

that.

We

are

also

a

global

team,

so

there

are

people

all

over

the

world

across

lots

of

different

time

zones,

which

is

pretty

cool.

And

we

all

work

remotely.

And

so,

yeah,

those

are

the

main

sort

of

differences,

I

would

say

Lower

street

also,

like

with

the

acquisition

of

Pacific

Content

has

much

more

of

a

broad

offering,

I

would

say,

than

Pacific

Content

did.

Pacific

Content

was

known

for

a

very

specific

type

of

project,

whereas

Lower

street,

you

know,

we

sort

of

run

the

gambit

in

what

we

can

offer

to

different

clients.

So

those

are,

I

would

say,

the

main

differences.

But

overall,

a

lot

of

similarities.

A

lot

of

my

colleagues

from

Pacific

Content

came

over

to

Lower

street

as

well.

So

a

lot

of

familiar

faces

where

I

am

too.

Now.

I

was

going

through

LinkedIn

and

I

saw

you

writing

about

YouTube

and

of

course

YouTube

is

now

the

flavor

of

the

month.

Everyone's

talking

about

it

allegedly

being

the

place

that

podcasting

should

be

and

everyone's

going

to

it.

But

of

course

the

big

thing

in

25

is

about

video.

Video,

video,

video,

video.

That's

all

you

seem

to

hear

about.

Now

you

wrote

a

report

recently

which

was

all

about

YouTube

and

video

content.

So

I

thought

I'd

pick

your

brains.

Really?

What

are

your

initial

thoughts?

Where

is

YouTube

in

the

podcast

landscape

and

where

is

video

more

importantly

within

that

podcast

landscape

as

well?

So

I

think

those

are

Sort

of

two

different

questions.

I

think

that

in

a

lot

of

ways

we

conflate

video

with

YouTube,

and

I

don't

necessarily

think

that

those

are

the

same

thing.

But

to

start

to

level

set,

a

lot

of

the

conversation

around

YouTube

started

when

it

became

clear

that

YouTube

was

now

the

number

one

platform

that

people

are

using

to

consume

podcasts.

So

YouTube

beat

out

Spotify

and

Apple

podcasts

for

the

first

time.

And

that

was

a

huge

deal.

It

is

a

huge

deal.

We

should

definitely

be

thinking

about

that

data.

The

reality,

though,

is

that

it's

YouTube

and

then

there's

every

other

podcast

platform

that

exists

out

there.

And

for

the

most

part,

YouTube

is

the

only

platform

that

people

are

using

to

watch

video.

Now,

I

know

that

there's

exceptions

there.

I

know

that

Spotify

is

pivoting

towards

video.

I

know

that

Apple

has

video

capabilities.

I

know

that

lots

of

podcasts,

like

podcast

2.0,

there's

lots

of

video

watching

capabilities.

Most

people

don't

even

know

that

they

can

watch

video

podcasts

across

these

other

platforms,

particularly

Apple,

which

has

always

had

video

podcasts.

And

so

for

the

majority

of

the

video

podcast

consumption

that's

happening

on

YouTube.

And

then

the

other

thing

I

will

say

is,

like,

YouTube

still

only

makes

up

about

30%

of

the

podcast

consumption

that

we

see.

So,

yes,

it's

more

than

Spotify,

it's

more

than

Apple,

still

about

a

third

of

the

consumption.

So

if

we

sort

of

take

all

of

those

things

together,

then

we

can

say,

like,

video

consumption

primarily

happening

on

YouTube,

that's

really

still

only

about

or

a

third

of

the

consumption

that's

happening.

I

also

would

say

that

out

of

all

of

the

consumption

that's

happening

on

YouTube,

not

all

of

that

is

video,

actually

video

watching.

A

lot

of

that

is

consumption

of

podcasts

that

were

published

on

YouTube

but

don't

have

a

video

component.

So

this

is

like,

you

know,

podcasts

that

are

published

with

just

a

static

image,

or

podcasts

that

are

published

on

YouTube

music

without

a

video

component.

So

that's

a

big

part

of

that

as

well.

And

then

there's

also,

you

know,

the

consumption

that

happens

where

there

is

a

video

element

of

the

podcast,

but

people

aren't

actually

watching

that,

they're

minimizing

their

screens.

I

think

we

know

now

a

huge

amount

of

YouTube

consumption

is

happening

on

people's

televisions.

So

they're

putting

it

on

and

then

they're

doing

other

things

in

the

background.

This

is

a

huge

trend

that

we

see

with

YouTube

now.

And

YouTube's

really

leaning

into

that.

You

know,

there

was

a

recent

report

that

they're

beating

out

traditional

Television

for

consumption

on

televisions.

And

that's,

you

know,

that

consumption

makes

a

lot

of

sense.

It's

something

to

put

on

in

the

background.

Does

that

mean

that

people

are

watching

those

entire

videos,

those

entire,

you

know,

one,

two,

three

hour

long

episodes?

They're

not.

Right.

It's

something

that's

on

in

the

background.

So

I

think

all

of

those

things

are

important

for

us

to

think

about

when

we

think

about

our

video

strategy.

When

it

comes

to

podcasts.

I

think,

you

know,

there's

a

lot

of

nuance

in

this

conversation

that

I

think

we're

missing

when

we

just

look

at

this

data

of,

you

know,

YouTube

is

winning

podcasts

and

we

all

need

to

pivot

to

video.

Like

maybe,

maybe

video

makes

the

most

sense

for

your

podcast

project.

Maybe

it

doesn't

make

the

most

sense

for

your

podcast

project.

Video

comes

with

a

lot

of

additional

costs

the

majority

of

the

time.

And

to

do

it

right

especially

there's

a

lot

of

costs

involved

and

there's

also

a

lot

of

sacrifices

involved

in

making

a

video

podcast

because

it

means

that

you're

sacrificing

the

ability

to

do

things

that

you

can

do

with

audio

only

projects.

So

but

that's

sort

of

the

basics

of

my

thoughts

on

YouTube.

Yeah,

no,

I,

I,

I

can

see

the

trend.

I

think

what

we're

seeing

is

the

high

end

podcasts

that

have

significant

budget

or

significant

teams

that

can

afford

to

have

both

an

audio

and

video

strategy

are

going,

okay,

we'll

put

our

video

strategy

onto

YouTube

but

we

will

also

have

an

audio

strategy

that

goes

onto

other

platforms.

We're

also

seeing

a

lot

of

the

video

as

you

said

in

the

PoC,

but

you

have

to

be

a

subscriber,

right?

If

you

try

and

put

a

video

in

your

pocket,

you'll

get

ad

interruptions,

you

will

get

the

YouTube

app

not

liking

it

and

glitching

in

your

pocket

won't

minimize.

So

they're

driving

you

down

a

paid

subscription

model

in

order

to

have

that

capability.

So

one

of

the

things

that

I've

noticed

recently

though

with

the

high

end

podcasts

is

that

they

are

moving

to

live

as

a

core

strategy.

So

if

you

look

at

podcasts

like

the

News

Agents

or

the

Rest

is

Politics

or

even

Zateo

or

Rest

is

Politics

usa.

Some

of

the

politics

podcasts

I

watch

so

you

know

now

what

I

listen

to

or

watch,

right?

But

they've

gone

live.

Why

do

you

think

they

are

also

moving

to

live?

I

get

the

lean

back

model

of

TV.

My

teenage

or

early

20s

daughters

will

have

a

video

on

not

watching

it,

but

will

listen

and

then

lean

into

watch

something

if

it

grabs

their

attention.

So

I

can

see

how

that

all

works.

But

live

seems

to

be

another

trend

that's

coming.

So

we've

gone

strangely

from

Apple

Spotify

to

YouTube.

We've

then

gone

strangely

from

audio

to

video,

and

it

feels

like

we're

now

going

video,

live,

video.

What

are

your

thoughts?

I

see

what

you're

saying,

and

I

do

see

that

trend

as

well.

I

don't

know.

I

think

that

there's

always

been

a

bit

of

a

live

element

in

podcasting.

It's

just

that

we

had

a

lot

more

live

in

person

events

back

in

the

day

before

COVID

That

was

a

huge

business

line

for

a

lot

of

podcasts.

Right.

Like,

my

favorite

murderer

would

have

massive

tours

that

they

would

do

of

live

shows.

Criminal

still

does,

like

massive

live

show

tours.

They

feel

like

they're

constantly

on

tour.

So

I

think

that's

kind

of

always

been

there

as

a

bit

of

an

element.

I

think

the

difference

is

now

it's

just

moved

to

being

more

of

a

digital

experience

rather

than

an

in

person

live

experience.

I

think

probably

part

of

this

comes

from

a

desire,

I

think,

from

the

audience

to

interact

more

with

podcasters.

You

have

this,

like,

very

deep

parasocial

relationship

that

builds

between

a

listener

and

a

podcaster.

You

know,

we

know

that,

like,

podcasting

is

very.

It's

cliche

to

say

now,

but

it's

a

very

intimate

medium.

You're

listening

to

them

by

yourself,

usually

with

headphones

on.

Although

maybe

that's

changing

now

with

the

rise

of

YouTube

and

people

putting

it

on

in

the

background

on

their

TVs.

But

for

the

most

part,

you

know,

that's

what's

sort

of

been

a

strength

of

the

medium,

is

sort

of

this.

This

relationship

that

builds

between

the

listener

and

the

podcaster.

And

I

think,

you

know,

most

podcast

platforms

do

not

really

support

interactivity

in

the

way

that

a

lot

of

other

platforms,

a

lot

of

other

digital

media

does.

Right.

Like

social

media

really

is

built

on

that

interactivity.

That's

what

it's

for,

is

for

us

to

have

that,

you

know,

connection

to

somebody

and

being

able

to

go

back

and

forth

with

them.

And

YouTube

also

really

prioritizes

interactivity

between

the

creator

and

the

audience.

And

I

would

say

that,

you

know,

a

live

event

affords

that

type

of

interactivity

in

a

way

that

we

don't

really

get

in

other

spaces

in

podcasting.

So

maybe

that's

where

part

of

this

is

coming

from.

And

also

maybe

that's

part

of

the

push

on

YouTube.

Right.

Like

YouTube

has

a

comment

section

that

is

usually

very

robust

and

oftentimes

creators

are

in

that

comment

Section

responding

to

people.

It's

more

of

a

conversation

compared

to

a

lot

of

other

podcast

platforms

that

I

know

that

there

are

lots

of

other

podcast

platforms

that

do

have

the

ability

to

allow

people

to

leave

comments

or

to

leave

reviews.

But

that

type

of

interactivity

is

not

something

that's

been

prioritized

or

emphasized

across

other

podcast

platforms.

So

maybe

that's

part

of

it.

Yeah,

I

think

there

are

three

elements.

Live

gives

you

that

feeling

of

being

in

the

room

with

the

people,

even

if

you're

not.

I

think

YouTube,

as

you

said,

have

comments,

but

I

think

the

chat

live

chat

actually

takes

it

one

stage

further.

And

I

think

super

chats

give

you

that

monetization

that

you

can

gain

from

those

live

events.

Overall

though,

if

you

were

talking

to

a

client

for

Pacific

Content

or

Lower

street,

what

would

you

be

saying?

Right.

Would

you

be

saying,

yes,

100%.

You

have

to

have

a

YouTube

strategy.

You

cannot

miss

out

because

it's

now

the

dominant

platform.

Would

you

say

horses

for

courses,

you're

a

crime

thriller,

don't

really

need

to

see

the

video

because

that's

then

TV

because

that

becomes

a

much

bigger

thing.

So

is

it

just

a

talking

heads

platform

for

podcasters?

Right.

What's

your

thoughts

there?

I

would

say

first

of

all,

yes,

always

YouTube.

Having

a

YouTube

strategy

is

always

part

of

the

conversation

regardless.

Doesn't

matter

who

the

client

is

or

what

the

type

of

project

is.

There

needs

to

be

some

strategy

around

YouTube.

So

that

could

be

that

we

just,

you

know,

are

publishing

on

YouTube

music.

That

could

be

that

we

have

a

static

image

and

we're

publishing

episodes

there.

Sometimes

the

YouTube

strategy,

like

as

you

said,

if

it's

a

true

crime

show,

we're

not

producing

full

length

video

episodes

necessarily.

And

so,

yeah,

like

that's

often

the

case.

I

would

say

probably

the

majority

of

the

time

we're

pushing

people

towards

that

as

a

strategy.

But

YouTube

needs

to

be

part

of

the

story

no

matter

what.

I

think

you

would

be

foolish

to

miss

out

on,

you

know,

a

third

of

listeners

potentially

discovering

your

show

that

way.

And

we

know

like

YouTube

is

much

more

robust

for

discoverability.

So

I

think

it

would

be

bad

advice

to

say,

to

ignore

YouTube

altogether.

That

being

said,

as

you

say,

like

some

podcast

formats

don't

lend

themselves

to

full

length

video

episodes.

Sometimes

it

makes

sense

to

make

video

clips

instead

of

full

length

video

episodes.

You

know,

you

can

still

record

video

for

all

of

your

interviews.

You

just

maybe

aren't

editing

it

together

as

a

full

length

episode.

Maybe

you're

just

releasing,

you

know,

a

portion

of

an

interview

or

like

a

segment

of

the

episode.

Or

just

a

clip

that's

being

used

on

TikTok

and

on

YouTube

shorts.

That's

also

a

legitimate

and

really

good

strategy

for

a

lot

of

our

clients.

It

does

really

depend,

I

would

say,

like

a

big

factor

in

deciding

how

we

approach

this

would

be

who's

your

target

audience

and,

and

what

is

their

consumption

sort

of

habits.

So

for

example,

when

it

comes

to

Lower

street,

we

produce

a

lot

of

B2B

content.

A

lot

of

the

time

that

content

is

targeting

CEOs

and

executives.

We

know

that

CEOs

and

executives

are

listening

and

they're

consuming

podcasts

far

less

on

YouTube

than

the

average

population.

They're

very

busy,

they're

multitasking,

they're

listening

to

podcasts

while

they're

exercising

or

while

they're

traveling,

or

while

they're

in

the

car

or

on

plane

rides.

They

don't

have

time

to

sit

down

and

watch

full

length

video

episodes.

So

does

it

make

sense

to

produce

these

pretty

costly

full

length

video

episodes

when

your

target

audience

isn't

going

to

be

sitting

down

and

watching

them?

It

doesn't

really

make

sense.

That's

not

that

strategy.

Maybe

isn't

the

best

strategy

here.

And

actually

we

should

be

producing

shows

that

are

maybe

a

little

bit

more

tightly

edited

because

we

know

that

these

people

don't

have

a

lot

of

time

and

we

want

to

respect

their

time

and

that

also

doesn't

lend

itself

to

full

length

video

episodes.

So

in

that

case,

I

would

say

we

would

steer

them

away

from

producing

full

length

video

episodes.

On

the

other

hand,

if

I

was

working

with

a

client

who

was

making

a

B2C

podcast

and

their

target

audience

was

18

to

25

year

old

men,

I

would

definitely

be

thinking

about

producing

a

full

length

video

podcast,

you

know,

a

more

chat

style

show,

because

that's

kind

of

content

that

they're

familiar

with,

that's

what

they

recognize

as

a

podcast.

You

know,

there's

going

to

be

better

opportunities

for

cross

promotion

with

other

podcasts

with

a

show

like

that.

So

these

are

all

things

that

we

would

think

about

and

discussions

we

would

have

in

the

early

days

to

sort

of

decide

on

the

strategy

there.

Yeah,

I

fully

agree

with

your

thought

process

around

shorts

reels,

TikToks,

because

there

was

a

great

report

out

recently

about

fundamentally

the

follow

model

is

maybe

not

the

model

that

we

should

be

looking

at

now.

Because

early

discovery

from

algorithms,

YouTube's

algorithm

and

also

TikTok's

algorithm

means

that

new

content

is

being

delivered

to

people,

even

if

you're

not

a

follower

and

you're

getting

great

discovery

in

that

mechanism.

Now

look,

let's

get

off

YouTube.

Enough

YouTube.

Let's

move

on

to

the

other

beast,

Spotify.

Now,

they

recently

came

out

saying

they

want

to

do

video.

We

all,

we

all

know

that.

And

Danielle

X

been

very

bullish

on

it.

The

numbers

have

started

to

come

out

around

how

they're

going

to

monetize

video

content.

So

we

know

that

if

you

upload

video

to

your

audio

RSS

account,

they

will

replace

the

audio

episode

with

the

video

episode

and

then

you

can't

go

back

to

the

audio.

They

both

YouTube

and

Spotify

ask

you

to

remove

dynamic

ad

insertions.

So

we

know

that

that's

no

longer

so.

We've

seen

now

that

some

people

are

coming

out

and

I

know

you

reshared

one

of

the

posts

as

well.

I

think

that's

how

I

discovered

it

actually,

which

was

a

person

telling

their

client

they've

lost

a

thousand

dollars

because

they

didn't

get

anything

from

the

Spotify

ad

network,

but

they

were

getting

money

from

the

video

side.

So

is

it

just

early

days

or

is

it

something

that

we

should

be

aware

of

that

actually

the

amount

of

money

that

you

may

gain

from

a

video

strategy

on

Spotify

is

always

going

to

be

lower

than

their

audio

driven

strategy?

Let's

just

take

a

quick

break.

Are

you

someone

who

often

looks

at

the

medical

system

we

have

today,

from

public

health

to

doctors

to

pharmaceutical

companies

to

science

itself,

and

says,

why

should

I

trust

these

guys?

Did

the

pandemic

turn

you

off

from

the

establishment

viewpoint

on

all

this?

Are

you

someone

who

is

a

scientist

or

a

doctor

or

from

public

health

looking

to

understand

where

things

went

so

wrong

with

the

public

and

how

to

rebuild

that

trust?

Then

check

out

why

Should

I

Trust

you?

A

weekly

podcast

hosted

by

two

former

TV

news

producers

joining

forces

with

a

doctor

and

a

virologist

to

look

at

why

so

many

Americans

mistrust

science

and

public

health

to

today

and

how

we

rebuild

that

trust.

So

check

out

why

Should

I

Trust

you?

Wherever

you

find

your

podcasts.

I

don't

know

that

it's

always

going

to

be

lower.

I

think

it

is

fair

to

say

that

it

is

early

days.

You

know,

like

to

be

fair

to

Spotify,

it

is,

it

is

early

days.

It

will

take

time

for

advertisers

to

jump

in

and

for

them

to

be

able

to

fill

all

of

the

inventory

that

they

have

available

to

them.

I

know

that

that

certainly

was

the

case

when

they

first

opened

up

advertising.

You

could

opt

into

advertising

through

anchor

and

there

was

a

good

period

of

time

where

their

inventory

was

going

empty

or

it

was

mostly

being

filled

with

ads

for

anchor,

internal

ads

from

Spotify.

So

it

takes

time

for

advertisers

to

jump

on

board

and

for

them

to

sell

through

all

of

that

inventory.

And

I

think

that

that's

fair.

I

guess

my

bigger

concern

with

Spotify's

strategy,

this

is

going

to

be

pretty

critical

of

Spotify,

but

it

kind

of

goes

twofold.

So

I

would

say

that

I

have

concerns

about

the

fact

that

this

pivot

to

video

is

being

tied

to

Spotify's

recent

positive

earnings

reports

that

have

come

out.

I

think

that

that's

a

huge

mistake

to

correlate

the

two

and

to

conflate

the

two.

I

don't

see

them

as

being

related.

Spotify

had

huge

cuts

and

they

let

go

of

a

lot

of

people

and

they

made

really

big,

drastic

decisions

on

their

spending.

And

that

I

think

has

impacted

their

overall

bottom

line

drastically.

But

because

it's

happened

sort

of

at

the

same

time

as

this

pivot

to

video,

the

two

are

sort

of

being

connected.

And

that's

the

narrative.

We're

being

told

that

like

this

is

the

right

strategy

for

Spotify

to

lean

into

video.

I'm

not

seeing

that.

I'm

just

not.

I'm

not

seeing

that

in

people's

consumption

day

to

day.

I

don't

know

anyone

who

consumes

video

on

Spotify,

so

I

struggle

with

that

being

correlated.

The

second

thing

that

I

would

say

about

Spotify

that

I

have

concerns

around

is

I

think

Spotify

is

really,

rather

than

listening

to

creators

and

hearing

what

the

concerns

are

for

creators

and

then

addressing

those

needs,

they're.

They're

constantly

chasing

somebody

else

and

copying

other

people's

models.

You

know,

like

we

saw

this

with

their

pivot

to

short

form

video.

They

wanted

to

start

doing

short

form

video

to

compete

with

TikTok.

That

has

been

pretty

much

a

flop,

I

think

it's

fair

to

say.

100%.

Yeah,

yeah.

People

have

not

consumed

that

kind

of

content

within

Spotify.

You

know,

we've

seen

this

with,

I

mean,

you

could

argue

even

podcasting

in

general.

Spotify,

like

getting

into

the

podcasting

game

in

general,

was

trying

to

copy

somebody

else's

model

and

they

have

overall

not

really

proven

to

be

able

to

pull

it

off

because

they're

not,

they're

not

really

looking

to

fix

a

problem

that

already

exists.

They're

just

copying

somebody

else's

model.

I

think

that

there's

opportunity

to

fix

problems

that

exist

within

podcasting

on

podcast

platforms.

I

think

if

we,

you

know,

where

I

see

Spotify

having

a

lot

of

opportunity

would

be

a

marketplace

and

being

able

to

sell

ads

for

creators,

for

smaller

creators,

so

smaller

creators

can

opt

in

and

then

they

fill

their

inventory

with

ads

automatically.

You

know,

Spotify

could

really

take

the

reins

and

do

that

for

on

the

audio

ad

side.

So

the

Spotify

podcast

ad

network,

like,

I

see

there's

a

huge

amount

of

potential

there

because

that's

a

gap

that's

in

the

industry

that

we

have.

You

know,

that's

an

area

that

there's

not

a

lot

of

other

opportunities

for

that

for

creators.

But

I

mean,

on

the

video

side,

it's

like

you're

so

far

behind

where

YouTube

is.

Like,

why

even

try

to

become

the

new

YouTube?

I

don't

know.

It

just

seems

like

there

are

other

problems

and

gaps

in

the

industry

that

they

could

be

filling

for

creators,

and

it

would

be

much

faster

to

be

able

to

accelerate

their

growth

if

they

were

to

fill

those

gaps

rather

than

just

chasing

the,

you

know,

what's

popular

now.

Yeah,

I

think

there's

a

couple

of

things

in

there

I

agree

with

and

a

couple

I

probably

disagree

with.

So

the

first

thing

I

think

is

that

Spotify

had

to

go

and

find

new

revenue

streams.

I

think

you're

right.

Conflating

the

two

returning

to

profitability

may

have

been

through

cuts,

but

I

think

they

also

know

that

if

they're

going

to

beat

the

market,

they

have

to

find

new

revenue

streams.

I

agree

with

that.

I

also

would

say

their

audiobooks

have

that.

That

pivot

has

been

pretty

successful,

I

think,

for

them.

You

know,

I

think

a

lot

of

people

are

listening

to

audiobooks

and.

Well,

maybe

not

revenue

wise.

Yeah,

I

don't

have

the

numbers

to

back

that

up.

But

again,

with

the

audiobook

structure,

I

believed

that

that

was

a

separate

revenue

stream

that

they

were

bringing

to

the

play

that

was

different

to

the

music

revenue

stream.

And

again,

they

were

hoping

that

podcasts,

the

ad

revenue

stream

would

be

another

revenue

stream.

I

think

video

is

just

another

revenue

stream.

And

I

think,

like

we

talked

about

YouTube

live,

James,

and

I

believe

that

Spotify

will

get

into

live

in

a

big

way,

but

I

think

live

more

with

music

concerts.

Being

able

to

go

and

see

the

Bruno

Mars

concert

because

it's

sold

out,

but

you

can

watch

it

online

or.

Or

guess

what,

you

can

watch,

you

know,

you

know,

the

weekend

I

can't

get

to

Canada,

but

I

can

watch

them

from

the

uk.

Right.

So

I

think

that

could

be

a

big

marketplace.

One

of

the

things

I

often

say,

though,

is

if

you

remove

the

music

element

from

Spotify,

would

it

make

a

good

podcast

platform?

Would

it

be

a

standalone,

good

app?

What

do

you

think?

No,

no,

exactly.

I

don't

think

it's

a

great

client.

Right.

And

that,

I

think

is

their

problem.

I

think

they

haven't

got

a

good

ui.

I

think

they're

stuck

with

their

music

ui,

that

they've

tried

to

adapt

to

a

podcast

ui,

that

they're

trying

to

adapt

to

a

video

ui.

I

think

it's

too

expensive

in

not.

Well,

it's

not

too

expensive.

They've

got

enough

money,

but

it's

too

risky

for

them

to

do

a

complete

UI

change.

And

I

think

they've

bolted

it.

But

I

think

the

one

thing

they

have

to

do

is

they

have

to

try

and

go

after

these

new

revenue

streams.

I

think

they

have

to

go

after

video.

I

do

agree

with

you.

I

don't.

I

don't

agree

that

it

needs

to

be

video.

I

agree

that

they

need

to

diversify

their

revenue

streams.

I

think

the

chase

to

video

is

not.

I

think

that's

not

how

people

consume

Spotify

things

on

Spotify,

it's

how

people

think

of

Spotify.

So

I

think

it's

too

vast

of

a

pivot

for.

It's

not

considering

user

behavior

and

user

consumption.

I

think

that

when

you

were

talking

about

the

UI

for

podcasts,

it's

funny

because

I

think

actually

Spotify

had

a

lot

of

opportunities

with

podcasting

to

make

that

into

something

really

great.

Like

Spotify

became

such

a

huge

app

for

music

because

they

have

a

lot

of

strengths

that

could

then

be

applied

to

podcasting.

You

know,

for

example,

Spotify's

algorithms

and

recommendation

tools

were

far,

far,

far

ahead

of

everybody

else,

at

least

back

in

the

day.

Maybe

not

so

much

nowadays,

but

back

in

the

day.

And

they

were

using

AI

for

recommendations,

like,

far

before

everybody

else.

They

were

like

way

advanced

on

those

things.

And

that

hasn't

translated

into.

Into

podcasting.

Like,

we

don't

see

really

great

recommendations

coming

for

podcast

listening

on

Spotify's

app.

Actually,

I

think

it's

gone

down

in

quality.

I

think

it

used

to

be

even

better

than

it

is

now.

You

used

to

get

like,

pretty

good

recommendations

on

the

podcast

homepage

on

Spotify.

And

I

think

it

was

human

curated

at

one

time,

and

now

it's.

Now

it's

not.

I

don't

know.

And

I

think

it

differs

from

country

to

country,

too.

I

think

in

the

States,

it's

better

than

it

is

in

Canada,

probably,

and

probably

better

than

it

is

in

the

uk.

But

why

hasn't

there

been

any

kind

of

effort

put

into

discoverability

for

podcasts

on

the

Spotify

app?

Because

that

is

something

that

they

are

known

for

and

we're

known

to

be

very,

very

good

at.

And

it's

a

big

problem

in

podcasting.

Like,

if

you

could

solve

that

problem,

you

know,

then

you

could.

You

could

really

make

a

case

for

why

people

should

be

using

Spotify

to

listen

to

podcasts,

but

there's

been

no

effort

put

into

that,

so

I

don't

know.

I.

I

do

agree

with

you

on

the

diversifying

thing.

Like,

they

did

need

to

diversify.

You

can't

just

st

music.

I

get

that.

I'm

not

sure

that

video

is

the

way

to

do

that

necessarily.

I

think

the

problem

they've

got

is,

and

I've

said

it

on

Newsweekly

with

James

on

several

occasions,

they

have

a

price

elasticity

problem.

There

is

a

point,

a

snap

point,

at

which

the

price

for

their

subscription

will

become

detrimental

to

renewal.

So

if

I

said

to

you,

are

you

Happy

to

pay

19.99?

Are

you

happy

to

pay

25.99,

35.99,

50

quid?

There

will

be

a

point

which

you

go,

I'm

not

really

that

sure

I

want

to

pay

that

anymore.

So

I

don't

know

where

that

point

is.

But

because

they're

taking

the

video

revenue

that

they

give

to

creators

out

of

that

subscription

model,

if

they

are

to

give

creators

a

greater

revenue

share,

then

they

have

to

increase

that

price

elasticity

and

their

subscription

costs.

So

I

don't

know

what's

going

to

happen.

And

in

that

sense,

the

one

thing

that's

missing

from

all

the

detail

and

data

that

they

give

us

is

how

much

do

you

pay?

Is

it

a

per

minute

watching

payment?

Is

it

a

percentage

completed

payment?

So

if

you

watch

a

video,

is

it

10%,

50%?

Do

you

have

to

watch

100%

before

a

payment

is

made?

We

don't

know

because

we

know,

for

example,

I

think

it's

30

seconds

or

more

is

considered

a

music

play,

and

then

that

goes

to

their

data

max.

Right.

And

that's

what

forms

part

of

the

payment

to

musicians.

But

we

don't

know

if

that's

true

with

podcasting

yet.

We

don't

know

because

they're

not

paying

for

the

podcast,

which

would

be

lovely,

but

they're

paying

for

the

video

element

of

a

podcast.

So

it's.

It's

very

weird.

And

I

think

also

with

YouTube,

you

know,

they

came

out

with

this

1

billion

plays,

and

James

and

I

looked

at

the

numbers

and

John

McDermott,

a

friend

of

the

show,

also

looks

numbers,

and

there

was

a

number

of.

We're

not

quite

sure.

That's

quite

good

because

it's,

you

know,

how

long's

a

play

before

it

gets

registered?

Is

it

a

logged

in,

logged

out

play?

So

there's

lots

of

things.

Okay,

look,

Annelise,

given

that

you're

not

a

betting

lady,

I'm

assuming.

But

if

you

were

a

betting

lady,

Would

you

say

that

Spotify

or

YouTube

by

the

end

of

2025

is

going

to

be

the

biggest

player

who's

going

to

win?

I

think

it'll

be

YouTube.

And

is

that

your

podcast

client

of

choice

yourself?

That

wouldn't

be

my

choice,

no.

Well,

personally

I

use

Pocket

Casts.

I

like

supporting

a

smaller

podcast

player.

I

have

used

Spotify

in

the

past,

particularly

when

they

had

gated

podcasts.

I,

I

did

listen

to

a

lot

of

gimlet

shows

on

Spotify

back

in

the

day.

That

was

also

when

I

paid

for

Spotify

Premium.

So

I

was

in

there

a

lot

more.

I

don't

pay

for

Spotify

Premium

anymore,

so

I

don't

use

Spotify

basically

at

all.

I

mean

you're

not

on

your

parents

account

like

every

other,

every

other

young

person.

My

parents

don't

even

pay

for

Spotify.

They

use

like

Google

Music

or

so

I

don't

know.

Right.

It

doesn't

exist

anymore

or

something

like

that.

No,

I

use

Tidal

now

actually,

which

I

chose

them

because

they

have

a

higher

payout

to

creators.

So

that's

why

I

switched

to

Tidal.

And

it's

the

same

price

also.

I

would

say

so.

And

it

has

the

same

music.

And

I

didn't

like

the

UI

for

listening

to

podcasts

on

Spotify

anyways,

so

I

didn't

feel

bad

about

leaving

that

behind.

I

did

use

Apple

podcasts

for

a

long

time

as

well.

And

I

liked

Apple

Podcasts.

I

do

like

Apple

Podcasts.

I

like

the

homepage

of

Apple

Podcasts

and

that

there's

editorial

recommendations

on

Apple

and

I

actually

find

those

to

be

much

more.

They're

human

edited.

I

know

Pocket

Cast

is,

is

similarly

there's

a

human

doing

the

editorial

decisions,

but

it's

Apple

is

country

specific.

So

I

find

I

get

a

lot

more

recommendations

that

are

more

specific

to

me

in

Apple,

which

I

like.

So

I

do.

I

use

Apple

Podcasts

on

my

desktop

and

I

check

it

pretty

regularly

for

new

shows

and

that's

how

I

discover

new

podcasts

a

lot

of

the

time.

But

for

day

to

day

playing

I

use

Pocket

Casts

because

I

found

Apple

was

really

glitchy.

Okay,

nice.

Now

look,

one

of

the

other

things

that

you've

been

sharing

and

talking

about

is

something

called

an

attention

diet.

Now

I

think

that

came

from

a

friend

of

Pacific

X

Pacific,

actually

Stephen

Pratt,

friend

of

the

show.

What

is

an

attention

diet

and

why

do

we

need

one?

Yeah,

this

was

Steve's

idea.

And

the

basic

framework

is

he

was

recommending

that

we

all

think

about

our

attention

Diet.

Sort

of

like

you

think

about

your

food

diet,

your

daily

food

pyramid,

what

Are

you

eating

every

day?

Are

you

getting

enough

vegetables?

Are

you

getting

enough

grains?

Are

you

getting

enough

protein?

So

basically

the

idea

is

he

was

recommending

me

think

about

the

health

of

our

attention

diet.

So

do

we

have

a

healthy

attention

diet?

Are

we

spending

our

time

on

things

that

are

actually

helping

us

to

grow

or

are

we,

you

know,

mindlessly

scrolling

for

hours

on

TikTok?

I

am

very

guilty

of

that.

So

I

should

probably

try

to

build

a

healthier

attention

diet.

So

that

was

sort

of

the

concept

that

he

had.

He

was

recommending,

you

know,

we

start

tracking

our

consumption

of

and

where

we're

giving

our

attention

to

and

then

think

about

how

we

can

turn

that

into

something

that

might

be

a

little

bit

more

healthy

for,

for

us

in

terms

of

our

consumption.

The

idea

that

we

sort

of

took

from

that.

So

my

colleague

Hannah,

who

is

head

of

audience

development

at

Laura

street,

she

saw

this

article

and

really

liked

it

and

then

had

the

idea

to

think

about

how

we

can

apply

this

to

our

clients

and

their

needs

that

they

might

have

and

think

about

it

in

the

framework

of

like,

what

is

our

listeners

attention

diet?

So

every

time

we

go

to

launch

a

new

project,

we

spend

a

good

amount

of

time

thinking

about

the

listener

profile

that

we're

trying

to

target.

And

that

includes

thinking

about,

you

know,

what

are

their

habits,

what

are

their,

you

know,

challenges

that

they

might

have,

obviously

some

demographic,

any

demographic

insights

we

could

pull.

But

a

big

piece

of

that

puzzle

that

we

need

to

start

thinking

about

even

more

is

what

is

their

attention

diet?

What

are

they

spending

their

time

with

already?

And

we

do

this

a

little

bit

already.

We

have

done

this

in

the

past

a

little

bit

already.

When

we

think

about

what

other

podcasts

are

they

listening

to?

So

we

would

do

like

sort

of

a

competitive

analysis

of,

you

know,

what

other

podcasts

are

maybe

targeting

this

audience,

what

are

they

spending

their

time

listening

to

already?

And

the

goal

there

is

to

make

something

that

is

both

unique

but

also

familiar.

So

something

that

is

going

to

be

filling

a

gap

in

the

market.

If

you

just

go

to

market

with

the

same

show

that's

already

out

there,

then

why

would

anybody

pivot

and

switch

to

listen

to

your

show?

Right.

Doesn't

make

sense.

But

you

also

want

to

make

something

that

feels

familiar

enough

that

they're

going

to

want

to

click

play.

It's

like

when

we

were

talking

about,

you

know,

the

YouTube

strategy.

If

I'm

making

a

show

for

18

year

old

men,

I'm

probably

going

to

make

a

video

podcast

because

I

know

that

that's

what

they

recognize

as

a

podcast.

And,

and

so

that

can

help

us

to

Figure

out

like

a

marketing

strategy

and

develop

a

show

altogether.

So,

yeah,

so

we

were

already

using

that,

that

sort

of

mentality.

But

then

applying

this

idea

of

an

attention

diet

sort

of

broadens

it

even

further

because

then

we're

thinking

about

things

like,

you

know,

are

they

spending

a

lot

of

time

watching

Netflix?

Is

this

a

demographic

that

is

still

reading

Forbes

every

day?

Is

this

a

group

of

people

who

spends

a

lot

of

time

listening

to

music

and

do

they

subscribe

to

a

paid

Spotify

account?

All

of

those

things

are

really

helpful

for

thinking

about

not

just,

you

know,

what

is

the

show

that

we're

going

to

build,

but

also

how

can

we

get

our

podcast

in

front

of

this

audience?

You

know,

would

it

be

helpful

to

have

a

feature

in

Forbes

to

promote

the

podcast?

Is

that

going

to

get

in

front

of

this

audience?

Is

it

helpful

to,

you

know,

build

a

show

that

is

easy

to

put

on

in

the

background

on

YouTube

on

your

TV?

Because

we

know

that

this

audience

has

their

TV

on.

You

know,

they,

there

may

be

like,

I

know

we

used

to,

we

always

say

like

two

screens,

but

I

know

now

we're

talking

about

like

three

screen

audiences.

Maybe

they're

like

a

three

screen

zoomer

and

we

want

to

have

something

that

they

can

put

on

in

the

background

on

their

tv.

Those

are

all,

all,

you

know,

important

things

to

consider

when

we're

developing

the

show

and

figuring

out

how

to

market

it.

So,

yeah,

so

that's

how

we've

applied

this

idea

of

this

attention

diet

to

our,

our

podcast

process

with

our

clients.

Nice.

Nice.

Now

you

were

in

New

York

recently,

you

were

on

AirFest.

What

were

your

takeaways?

So

I

think

probably

my

big,

you

know,

it's

funny,

cause

like

at

the,

after

these

conferences,

people

like

to

sort

of

get

a,

a

gauge

for

like,

are

things

feeling

positive

or

are

things

feeling

negative

in

the

industry?

I

would

say

that

for

once,

I

don't

think

I

walked

away

feeling

either

way

about

it.

If

I'm

totally

honest,

I

got

the

impression

that

in

New

York

City

right

now,

people

podcasting

is

not

their

priority.

People

have

a

lot

of

other

things

on

their

mind

and

are

maybe

a

little

checked

out

of

podcasting

right

now.

So

that's

the

vibe

in

America

that

I

was

picking

up

on

anyway.

In

terms

of

conversations

that

I

was

having

around

podcasting,

though,

I

would

say

that,

like,

I

think

that

amongst

people

who

work

in

the

industry,

there

is

a

bit

of

a

frustration

with

this

constant

push

towards

video.

That's

not

because

people

are

not

thinking

about

video

or

they're

not

willing

to

pivot

to

video,

or

they're

not

willing

to

explore

video

or

anything

like

that.

It's

just

that

there's

a

frustration

that

podcasting

is

becoming

synonymous

with

a

video

talk

show

because

there's

so

many

other

formats

that

a

podcast

could

take

and

it

could

be

so

much

more

creative

and

so

much

more

interesting

than

that.

And

I

think

people

are

feeling

sort

of

a

lack

of

creativity

in

the

industry

right

now

and

that's

very

frustrating.

The

other

conversation

that

I

was

having

a

lot

was

around

video

clips

and

the

value

of

video

clips.

And

I

would

say,

like,

I

think

that

there's

sort

of

an

understanding

amongst

most

of

the

people

that

I

spoke

to

that

video

clips

are

worth

it

because

of

what

you

said

about

discoverability

and

the

algorithm

putting

them

in

front

of

people

who

have

never.

Who

don't

follow

you

or

who

have

never

been

connected

to

you

at

all.

I

think

that

there's

a

lot

of

value

there.

And

also

a

lot

of

times

video

clips

don't

necessarily

lead

to

new

downloads,

but

they

serve

sort

of

another

purpose

and

that

people

can

consume

clips

without

ever

going

to

listen

to

full

length

episodes

of

the

podcast

and

that

that's

still

valuable

and

that's

still

okay.

I

think

like

when

I

look

at

my

own

consumption,

that's

definitely

the

case.

Like

there's

a

lot

of

podcasts

where

I

love

seeing

their

clips

show

up

on

my

for

you

page.

I

will

never

go

listen

to

the

full

length

episode

of

that

podcast.

It's

just

not

the

type

of

podcast

that

I

would

typically

consume

and

I

don't

want

to

listen

to

like

a

whole

two,

three

hour

long

episode

of

it.

But

I

really

love

the

clips

and

it

introduced

me

to

new

creators

and

I

still

am

introduced

to

this

world

of

the

podcast

and

I

would

follow

them

on

social

media,

but

I'm

not

interested

in

listening

to

the

full

length

episodes.

I

think

there's

a

lot

of

value

there

still.

And

so

if

we

only

measure

it

in

terms

of

as

a

discoverability

tool

or

as

a

marketing

tool,

I

don't

know

that

clips

have

a

whole

lot

of

value

in

terms

of

that.

I

don't

think

that

they

necessarily

generate

a

lot

of

downloads,

downloads,

but

I

still

do

think

that

they

do

hold

a

lot

of

value

for

creators

and

for

brands

and

for

podcasters.

So

that

was

another

sort

of

takeaway,

I

guess,

from,

from

that

time.

I

think

shorts

do

help

with

brand

awareness

because

I

think

it's

through

osmosis

over

time.

I

think

if

you.

Your

repetition,

repetition,

repetition,

you

eventually

get,

oh,

maybe

I'll

click

and

listen.

I

don't

think

it's

an

immediate

download

return.

I

also

think

that,

you

know,

in

the

world

that

we

are.

I

think

what

you've

said

through

the

whole

of

this

interview,

which

has

been

quite

interesting,

is

discoverability

as

being

a

big

issue

and

it

still

always

is.

I

mean,

James

thinks,

I

believe,

that

there

isn't

a

big

discoverability

issue.

I

think

there

is.

That's

where

we

differ.

And

I

think

we're

learning

that

shorts

are

a

great

way

for

a

new

customer

discoverability,

introduction

to

something

through

an

algorithm.

But

I

think

we're

seeing

YouTube's

algorithm

as

another

form

of

good

discoverability

and

whether.

Whether

we

can

build

community

from

the

shorts

leading

to

long

form

podcasts

leading

to

community.

So

repeatable

customers,

that's

an

interesting

part.

And

I

think

we're

seeing

a

bigger

push

towards.

People

talk

about

community,

we

talk

about

fandoms,

we

talk

about

monetization

of

fandoms

and

how

that

can

happen

now.

So

I

think

that's

where

I

think

we

are

in

25.

And

I

think

I

find

Spotify

may

be

in

the

squeezed

middle.

I

think

they

could

be

the

squeezed

middle,

which

is

they're

not

YouTube

and

they're

not

really

video,

but

they're

not

really

shorts.

As

we

said,

they

didn't

really

have

a

TikTok

strategy

that

worked.

I

think,

as

you

said,

purpose

of

Spotify

for

most

users

is

music,

not