The

Pod

News

Weekly

review

with

Buzz

Sprout.

With

Buzz

Sprout,

Start

podcasting.

Keep

podcasting.

I'm

joined

by

a

very

good

friend

of

the

show.

His

name's

Matt

Medeiros.

He

is

a

contributor

to

the

podcasting

2.0

scene,

but

he

also

writes

the

podcastsetup.com

and

he

also

works

for

Rocket

Genius.

I

think

I've

got

there

finally.

Edit

67.

No

one

noticed.

It

was

seamless,

Matt.

No

one

noticed.

It

was

perfect.

You

are

great

at

your

craft.

Yeah,

yeah.

You

can

tell.

I've

got

the

brain

of

the

size

of

a

pea.

How

the

hell

do

I

do

anything

else

in

life,

right?

Matt,

welcome,

welcome,

welcome.

Now,

what

are

we

here

to

talk

about?

I

guess

because

there

are

so

many

things

we

could

talk

about

since

the

beginning

of

the

year.

There

seems

to

be

a

little

bit

of

a

negativity

to

this

thing

called

podcasting

2.0.

It

was

kicked

off

a

couple

of

weeks

ago

by

Mark

Asquith

and

Danny

Brown

on

their

show

in

and

Around

Podcasting,

where

they

simply

titled

it.

Has

podcasting

2.0

failed?

What

were

your

thoughts?

Yeah,

so

pleasure

to

be

here,

Sam.

Thanks

for

having

me.

The

backdrop

of

my

perspective

on

all

this

is

I

also

cover

WordPress.

I

have

covered

WordPress

for

15

years.

WordPress

is

another

open

source

publishing

platform

that

complements

podcasting

perfectly.

Todd

at

Blueberry

knows

this

really

well.

We

were

kind

of

competitors

back

in

the

day

when

I

worked

at

a

podcast

hosting

company.

And

I've

seen

the

WordPress

grow

through

the

lens

of

open

source.

And

I

have

a

huge

respect

for

all

the

efforts

people

contribute

their

time

and

efforts

to

grow

WordPress.

And

I

have

the

same

affinity

for

this

podcasting

thing.

When

I

hear

criticisms,

like

in

the

WordPress

world,

where

people

say

it's

slow,

it's

lethargic,

nobody

uses

this

anymore.

Yet

45%

of

the

Internet

is

powered

by

WordPress.

I

scratch

my

head

and

I

say,

well,

we

gotta

be

doing

something

right.

Same

goes

for

podcasting.

When

I

see

the

RSS

feed

constantly

get

criticized

or

podcasting

2.0

get

criticized,

I

have

to

look

at

this

and

go,

look.

There

are

people

trying

to

innovate

in

a

space

that

is

fragmented,

of

course.

But

this

is

all

done

in

the

open.

This

is

your

chance

to

vote

and

have

a

say

in

improving

podcasting.

Why

punch

down

on

it?

And

even

if

things

were

said

as

like,

clickbait

and

to

hype,

you

know,

hype

the

conversation,

only

so

much

of

that

can

go

around.

Like,

at

some

point

we

have

to

stop

and

say,

like,

here's

all

the

good

things

that

Podcasting

2.0

efforts

and

RSS

feeds

grant

us.

Right?

When

we

look

at

the

crowning

achievement,

you

know,

the

ragtag

team

of

Podcasting

2.0

folks

got

their

transcript

tag

adopted

by

Apple.

That

is

massive.

And

I

look

at

these

as

real

solid

wins,

not

only

for

podcasting,

but

for

open

source,

for

groups

of

people

without

any

VC

backing

knocking

on

the

door

of

Apple

saying,

you

want

this?

And

Apple

saying,

okay,

we'll

take

it.

The

biggest

company

in

existence

almost.

And,

you

know,

I

have

to

take

a

step

back

and

say,

let's

talk

a

little

bit

more

positively

about

podcasting

2.0

instead

of

just

going

at

it

for

all

of

its

warts

and

bruises,

like,

let's

look

at

the

good

stuff

happening.

Claire

Waite

Brown

does

this

as

well

with

her

podcast,

Fantastic

resource

for

podcasting

2.0.

And

there

should

be

more

advocates

like

Claire,

like

yourself

and

others

to

just

say,

we've

got

this

thing

here.

Let's

adopt

it,

and

let's

be

good

stewards

of

it,

in

my

opinion.

Okay,

so

as

you

said,

the

Apple

adoption

was

a

crowning

moment.

I

would

argue

back,

playing

devil's

advocate,

that

Apple

only

adopts

it

because

there

was

a

court

case

about

accessibility

and

transcripts

and

that

they

would

not.

And

I

have

spoken

to

the

Apple

team,

and

they

have

no

interest

in

the

person

tag

in

anything

else

particular.

So

I'm

playing

devil's

advocate

here

because

I

think

sometimes

we

can

drink

our

own

Kool

Aid

and

sometimes

believe

that

what's

been

achieved

is

because

of

what

we

did,

rather

than

externalities

that

made

them

adopt

it

very

quickly.

Now,

yeah,

that

said.

That

said,

the

Podcasting

2.0

namespace

came

about

because

Adam

Curry,

the

inventor

of

podcasting,

went

away.

There

was

the

podcasting

Ice

Age,

where

nothing

really

happened

and

the

stewardship

was

under

Apple.

And

then

suddenly

Adam

and

Dave

Jones

came

back

and

said,

look,

you

know,

we

should

do

something

about.

And

was

born

the

podcast

in

2.0

namespace.

And

a

number

of

people,

yourself,

myself

and

many

others

included,

started

helping

and

working

on

it,

and

it's

been

great.

But

Tom

Webster

wrote

a

post

last

week.

What

did

he

say?

Yeah,

so

there

was

a

lot

of

criticism,

and

I

took

it

as

criticism

because

I

was

under

the

weight

of

all

of

podcasting

2.0

criticism,

right?

And

the

headline

podcasting

3.0

was

something

that

just

kind

of,

I

guess,

sparked

me

to

write

a

blog

post

and

make

a

video,

you

know,

and

coincidentally,

yes,

it

wasn't

a

podcast

that

I

responded

with,

because

I

just

don't

have

a

podcast

for.

For

podcasts.

I

don't

have

another

podcast

about

podcasting.

Not

yet,

anyway.

So

these

were

the

mediums

that

I

had

to,

you

know,

share

my

opinions.

And

I

agree

with

a

lot

of

what

Tom

said,

especially

with

his

recent

article

that

he

put

out

today.

But

the

criticism

for

apps

is

certainly

just.

And

I

look

at

this

as

criticism

all

around.

I

worked

three

years

at

a

podcast

hosting

company

as

I

was

the

Advocate

for

podcasting

2.0,

and

this

is

not

easy,

right?

Hosts

have

to

do

their

part,

apps

have

to

do

their

part,

the

podcasters

have

to

do

their

part

in

convincing

listeners

to

do

it.

And

at

the

end

of

the

day,

the

listener

has

to

want

to

engage

in

all

this

cool

stuff

that

we're

putting

together.

But

I

just

don't

agree

squarely

putting

the

blame

on

podcasting

2.0

team

and

again,

having

just

huge

respect

for

folks

who

dedicate

their

time

to

this.

Is

the

listener

experience

getting

better

for

podcasting?

Like

you

said,

I

think

a

lot

of

us

drink

our

own

Kool

Aid.

Probably

not

as

much

as

we

want

it

to

be.

Are

we

under

the

gun

against

YouTube

and

Spotify?

Absolutely.

Is

it

hard

to

put

audio

up

against

this

behemoth

video

social

platform

that

is

YouTube?

Yes,

these

are.

These

are

challenging

times

for

podcasting.

But

I

believe

that

preserving

all

things

open

podcasting

is

important

to

humanity.

And

I

think

for

publishers,

it

is

at

the

very

least

a

thread

of

insurance

to

say,

well,

if

YouTube

changes

the

algorithm,

if

Spotify

changes

the

algorithm,

if

some

other

player

comes

into

the

game

and

they're

trying

to

do

a

walled

garden,

you

always

have

your

fundamental

base

of

audio,

rss,

or

your

blog

with

written

words

of

content

to

fall

back

on

as

your

foundation.

So

it's

a

long

way

of

getting

at.

You

know,

I

don't

think

Tom

was

completely

off

base.

He

is

steeped

into

this

industry

further

than

I

am.

He

is

an

award

winner

and

I

am

not.

So

I

have

a

high

respect

for

his

point

of

view.

I

am

just

coming

from

this

is

like,

let's

not

beat

up

the

podcasting

2.0

efforts.

Let's

try

to

find

the

parts

where

we

can

make

it

shine

and

adopt

that

as

tech

providers,

hosts,

apps

and

advocates.

So,

first

of

all,

when

I

read

Tom's

article,

I

wholeheartedly

had

to

say,

actually,

I

agree

with

you.

And

when

I

read

or

listened

to

Danny

Brown

and

Mark

Asquith

talk

about

has

Podcasting

two

that

I

failed

on.

So

it

went.

It's

not

failed,

but

it's

not

succeeded.

I

think

there's

a

different

way

of

Phrasing

that,

right?

As

in,

I

think

it's

done

some

great

things

and

I

think

there's

been

a

tremendous

effort

by

many

people

to

produce

27

plus

tags

that

are

metadata

features

that

enhance

the

podcasting

experience.

They

don't

change

the

audio,

but

they

make

it

a

better

way

of

discovery

or

interactivity

or

monetization.

So

I

think

those

things

are

unquestionable.

But

I

think

companies

like

Spotify,

where

we

often

say,

well,

why

aren't

they,

you

know,

adopting

the

podcasting

2.0

standards

and

all

these

things?

They

can't.

I

mean,

I've

been

in

large

corporates,

they

can't.

They

cannot

wait

for

ratification

of

a

new

tag

before

they

can

adopt

it.

They

haven't

got

the

time.

They've

got

shareholders,

they've

got

investors,

they've

got

680

million

users.

They

need

to

go

and

make

money

from

that

market

and

they

cannot

wait.

So,

you

know,

you

could

argue

they

used

what

is

called

the

pod

love

chapters,

same

as

YouTube.

So

why

can't

they

call

those

Open

Chapters?

Because

there's

more

people

using

them

than

the

podcasting

2.0

chapters.

It's

just

a

moniker

calling

it

open.

It's

just

because

we

want

it

to

be

open

across

platform

standard.

But

actually

Spotify

could

argue

with

YouTube

that

it

is

a

better,

more

open

standard.

Right.

James

has

argued

that.

Why

are

we

adding

a

new

image

tag

when

there's

already

a

image

tag

available?

That

is

in

adoption,

there's

a

media

tag.

So

all

I'm

trying

to

say

is

that

I

don't

think

we

can

expect

the

large

corporate

companies

to

come

and

adopt

these

things.

Maybe

they

will

like

Apple,

but

there'll

be

bit

piece

adoptions.

There

won't

be

mass

adoptions

of

what's

been

produced.

So

I

think

when

Tom

Webster

said

two

things,

one

was,

where

is

podcasting

3.0?

I

want

to

ask,

what

does

that

mean?

And

then

the

other

one

was

he

talked

about

it

being

rudderless

and

tillerless.

What

do

you

think

he

meant

by

that

first?

Yeah,

I

mean,

once

again,

it

was

a

little

disheartening

for

me

to

read

those

words.

But

then

also

I

got

the

double

take

of

Adam

and

Dave

sort

of

almost

agreeing

with

that,

that

thread

of

thought.

And,

you

know,

I

sort

of

lost

a

little

bit

of

air

in

my

chest

because

I

was

like,

man,

once

again,

like,

you

guys

have

been

doing

an

amazing

job

and

you

know,

I

won't

belabor

this,

but

like,

just

a

huge

amounts

of

respect

for

both

sides,

but

especially

those

who

have,

you

know,

committed

the

time

to

podcasting.

2.0.

And

yeah,

you

know,

when

I

look

at,

again,

if

you

look

at

WordPress

as

an

open

source

movement

and

I

look

at

what,

what

I've

been

in

for

the

last

15

to

nearly

20

years,

yes,

there

are

more

community.

It's

first

of

all,

it's

a

much

bigger

community.

Right.

You're

talking

about

40,000

people

in

Slack

that

are,

you

know,

interested

in

committing

to

WordPress,

never

mind

the

hundreds

of

thousands

of

people

who

develop

for

it.

Right.

So

huge,

huge

community.

And

yes,

there

are

regular

meetings

like

we

have

the

Friday

afternoon

show

as

like

the

air

quotes

boardroom

as

the

only

official

meeting

that

I

see.

Could

it

be

more

organized?

Yes.

What

I

know

is

that

open

source

is

slow

and

messy

and

you

know,

it's

a

snowball

effect

as

it

rolls

down

the

mountain

it

gets

a

little

bit

bigger

and

a

little

bit

bigger

and

it's

just

going

to

take

time

for

that

to

grow.

And

you

know,

it's

unfortunate

that

I

feel

like

now

both

sides

feel

like,

yeah,

there's

nothing

really

here.

It's

just

a

little

experiment

that

we're

all

doing.

I

wish

it

wasn't.

I

wish

there

was

more

organization

around

it.

I

know

Adam

and

Dave

just

don't

have

the

time

nor

wanna

be

in

that

direction.

Hosts.

When

I

was

at

my

time

at

a

hosting

company,

hosts

would

be

perfect

to

get

together

and

try

to

get

some

momentum

going

around

this

so

that

there

can

be

quarterly

meetings,

you

know,

some

kind

of

in

public

meeting

that

breaks

down

the

different

2.0

tags

that

are

being

adopted.

You

know,

once

again,

I

look

at

if

you

were

to

buy

an

account

from

GoDaddy,

you're

going

to

get

WordPress

one

way

versus

a

Bluehost.

You're

going

to

get

WordPress

Oneway.

It's

still

WordPress

at

the

core,

but

this

open

source

framework

allows

them

to

build

their

own

experiences

and

I

hope

that's

what

that

hosts

will

do

and

apps

will

do

in

a

more

joint

effort.

So

I

guess

at

the

end

of

the

day,

as

the

dust

settles

from

this,

it

sounds

like,

yeah,

it

is

slightly

rudderless

though

I

hope

for

a

future

where

it

does

get

a

little

bit

more

organized.

Much

to

the

corporate

chagrin

of

podcasting

2.0,

I

guess.

I

think

mirroring

your

point

about

the

way

that

web

hosting

Companies

have

adopted

WordPress

and

they

are

a

different

experience

based

on

a

different

host.

I

think

that's

true

with

podcasting

as

well.

You'll

see

Buffsprout

have

implemented

some

of

the

tags

your

CRSs

have

implemented.

Others

captivate,

Blueberry

Pod

2

pod

home

right.

All

of

them

have

got

different

levels

of

adoption.

As

a

app

developer,

TrueFans,

I

wish

they'd

go

faster

and

further,

but

that's

just

my

desire.

But

they

are.

They

are

making

business

decisions

about

their

customer

base

and

the

amount

of

time

in

engineering

required

and

also

in

customer

support.

So

you

can

ask

them

to

go

faster,

but

they

will

go

as

fast

as

they

want

to

go.

Have

you

ever

heard

the

parable

of

the

elephant

and

the

four

blind

men?

Yeah.

Right?

Yes.

I

think

that's

what

podcasting

2.0

is.

We

all

look

at

it

as

what

we

want

it

to

be.

It's

transcripts,

it's

micropayments,

it's

live.

It's

whatever

we

think

it

wants

to

be.

Right.

And

I

think

people

adopt

or

look

at

Podcasting

two

oh,

when

they

see

it

and

they

touch

it

in

many

different

ways,

and

somebody

will

describe

it

in

one

way

and

somebody

will

describe

another,

but

it's

still

an

elephant

if

they

could

all

see

what

it

was.

So

this

is

my

issue.

I

think

we

as

a

group

have

missed

a

trick.

And

I

think

we

all

know

that,

because

the

Podcast

Standards

Project

was

going

to

be

the

marketing

arm

of

podcasting

2.0,

and

I

stepped

up

to

be

the

evangelist,

and

I

wanted

to

do

that

role,

but

sadly,

I

don't

believe

I

can

do

that

role

without

funding.

So

that

role

doesn't

exist.

But

I

did

think,

and

I

genuinely

believed

that

the

smart,

smart

people

who

work

with

Adam

and

Dave

and

what

I

would

call

the

R

and

D

of

podcasting

2.0

coming

up

with

some

crazy

ideas,

some

hit

the

cutting

room

floor,

some

make

it

through,

those

people

will

then

chuck

that

over

to

the

Podcast

Standards

Project

Group,

who

would

then

be

in

the

marketing

side

of

the

business

saying,

yep,

we'll

adopt

that

tag

as

ex

host,

and

yes,

we'll

market

it

this

way,

and

we

will

spend

time

and

money

pushing

out

to

the

end

users

so

they're

made

aware.

And

I

think

that's

what

I

had

hoped

would

happen,

but

I

don't

believe

that

will

happen

now.

And

in

the

last

three

or

four

weeks,

I've

tried,

and

Adam

has

clearly

told

me

and

the

rest

of

the

community,

he

is

the

inventor

of

podcasting,

but

he

will

not

be

the

evangelist.

He

will

not

be

at

the

events.

He

was

treated

badly

by

podcast

movement,

and

I

think

he's

just

said,

screw

it,

I'm

not

going

to

go

and

put

myself.

You

know,

you

wouldn't

get

Tim

Berners

Lee

walking

into

an

event

and

going,

we're

talking

about

the

web.

Who

are

you?

And

I

Just

think,

you

know,

there

was

no

respect

to

Adam.

So

guess

what?

We've

lost.

Lost

that

one.

So

I

think

the

other

part

of

what

I

wanted

to

say

was

we

are

missing

the

marketing.

That's,

that's

one

of

my

beliefs.

So

I

think

podcasting

1.0

was

Adam

with

Dave

Weiner

coming

up

with

the

enclosure

20

odd

years

ago.

Right.

That's

1.0.

I

think

Adam

and

Dave

Jones

came

back

and

said,

okay,

we

can

make

this

better.

And

that

was,

I

think,

the

start

of

podcasting

2.0.

Now

I

think

that

could

have

been,

of

the

27

tags,

maybe

eight

or

10

of

those

tags

could

have

been

part

of

2.0.

And

I

think,

and

I've

said

it

over

a

year

ago,

that

we

missed

a

trick

to

align

ourselves

with

the

monikers

of

the

web.

Web

3.0.

Now

web

4.0,

that's

coming

out.

So

I

think

web

3.0

is

a

decentralized,

own

your

data

monetization,

bitcoin

blockchain

platform.

That's

what

people

think

of

Web

3.0.

Web

2.0

is

Facebook,

it's

Twitter,

it's

centralized,

it's

ad

driven,

it's.

And

that's

what

I

think

we

are.

I

think

podcasting

2.0

today

is

DAI.

I

think

it's

host

red

ads,

I

think

it's

all

of

that

stuff.

It's

centralized

around

YouTube

and

Spotify

and

Apple.

I

think

RSS

is

a

perfect

analogy

of

a

web

3.0

app

and

with

all

of

its

characteristics,

multiple

hosts,

multiple

apps,

own

your

RSS

process,

own

your

data,

move

it

to

where

you

want,

and

data

portability

exists.

Right.

All

of

those

characteristics

of

podcasting

are

all

the

characteristics

of

Web3

though.

And

I

think

we

as

a

community

then

could

have

made

it

easier

for

non

technical

people

and

for

publishers

and

even

some

hosts

to

adopt

bits

of

the

elephant.

Right.

Instead

of

trying

to

adopt

the

whole

elephant.

Correct.

And

I

think

that's

what

we

missed.

Yeah,

it's

a

marketing

play.

So

in

the

WordPress

world,

there's

a

developer

advocate

or

a

community

advocate.

That's

what

my

title

is

at

Rocket

Genius.

In

basic,

I

understand

our

Software,

I

understand

WordPress

software,

but

I

also

understand

the

business

and

the

marketing

side

of

it.

So

I

sit

as

this

conduit

to

see

opportunity

in

the

larger

space

and

figure

out

how

to

tie

that

back

to

gravity

forms

and

Rocket

Genius.

The

same

thing

is

happening

here

in

the

podcasting

space,

where

there

could

be

apps

that

just

do

boosts.

Just

boosts,

or

an

exploration

of

chapters

or

an

app

search

engine

that

Just

does

transcripts.

They're

just

these

individual

tags.

One

could

have

an

entire

app

just

on

that.

Right,

I

understand

what

I'm

saying

to

a

guy

who's

building

an

entire

platform,

you

know,

using

all

this

stuff.

But

there

could

be,

you

know,

just

a

place

where

you

go

for

all

live

episodes

happening

using

the

lit

tag

right

now.

That's

all

it

is,

you

know,

and

that's

where

I

feel

like

I

look

around

as

just

an

advocate

myself

to

be

like,

no,

there's

opportunity

to

build

this

stuff

here.

The

tech

exists.

You

just

have

to

align

this

with

some

marketing

and

messaging.

I

mean,

are

you

going

to

build

the

next,

you

know,

massive

social

media

platform?

Probably

not,

but

a

host

could

adopt

this

kind

of

thinking,

you

know.

And

I

think

it's

just

very

important

and

I

would

be

remiss

to

just

not

mention,

I

understand,

like

maybe

podcasting

2.0

is

not

the

best

title.

Maybe

value

being

tied

so

closely

and

misconstrued

to

bitcoin

all

the

time

is

also

not

a

good

thing.

Because

I've

been

operating

under

the

auspice

of

value

for

value

since

I

started

my

podcast

15

years

ago.

I

just

put

out

content

and

I

turn

to

sponsors

and

I

say,

I've

got

a

valuable

audience

here.

How

about

you

sponsor

it?

And

the

numbers

are

20,

30,

40x

of

what

you

would

hear,

you

know,

Tom

and

and

James

report

on

for

CPM.

Like

podcast

does

50,

60

thousand

dollars

a

year

in

sponsorship

and

it's

a

fraction.

You

know,

the

download

counts

are

very

small.

But

it's

a

super

trusted

audience

that

I

have.

And

that

is

the

essence

of

value

for

value.

That

is

the

essence

of

like

being

able

to

build

something

your

way,

monetize

it

your

way.

That

sort

of

bucks

the

trend

of,

well,

if

you're

on

YouTube,

you

gotta

have,

you

know,

at

least

500

subscribers

before

you

can

turn

on

monetization.

And

when

we

you're

going

to

get

three

cents,

it's

like,

well,

I

don't

want

to

be

a

part

of

that.

I

want

to

be

able

to

adopt

this

technology

and

sort

of

do

it

my

way.

I

mean

it

takes

a

different

kind

of

person

to

lead

that

charge.

But

through

education,

through

my

efforts

and

others

efforts,

I

hope

that

we

can

educate

folks.

You

don't

always

have

to

fit

the

mold

of

the

algorithm

to

get

this

stuff

done.

You

can

do

it

your

way.

And

again,

that's

what

I

love

about

podcasting

in

general.

And

of

course

the

efforts

of

podcasting

2.0

wholeheartedly

agree.

I

think,

you

know,

what

we

should

see

is

piecemeal

use

of

the

tags,

and

people

will

adopt

apps

based

on

that.

So

Adam

and

Dave

are

building

Godcaster.

It's

using

some

tags,

not

using

all

tags.

There

are

other

apps

out

there.

There's

music

specific,

focused

podcasting,

like

Wave

Lake,

like

Tune

fm,

like

LM

Beats,

Audiobook

specific

ones

as

well.

So

there

are

generalist

apps

like

Fountain

True

Fans,

podverse,

Podcast

Guru,

and

there

are

vertical

specific

ones.

But

I

think

I

go

back

to

my

point.

When

I

woke

up

after

reading

Tom

Webster's

post

and

having

mulled

over

it

overnight,

and

I

read

the

title,

which

was

called

podcasting

3.0.

And

when

I

was

in

marketing

with

Netscape

and

Microsoft,

you

know,

I've

been

down

this

road

in

was

it

HTML

1,

2,

3,

4,

5?

We

use

monikers

very

well

with

iPhone

10,

11,

12,

13,

14,

15.

Right.

And

Apple

knows

that.

IPhone

17.

Oh,

new

phone.

What's

in

it?

What's

the

feature?

And

that's

what

I

want

us

to

do

with

podcasting.

I

want

podcasting

2.0

to

have

a

cutoff

line.

I

want

it

to

be

10

tags,

12

tags,

whatever

that

decision

is.

And

then

the

next

set

of

tags

are

the

next

version.

So

in

podcasting

3.0,

I

would

put

micro

payments

in

there.

And

I

agree

with

you,

by

the

way,

value

for

value

is

not

micro

payments.

It

is

a

economic

thinking

theory

of.

Correct.

Yeah.

So

it's

more

of

theoretical

way

of

monetizing,

and

it's

not

specific

to

any

mechanism

of

monetization,

which

the

two

get

conflated.

But

I

would

put,

you

know,

bitcoin

wallets

and

micro

payments

into

the

3.0.

I

put

live

into

the

3.0.

I

probably

put

wallet

switching

into

the

3.0.

I

would

put

other

more

advanced

technical

things.

So

it's

easier

then

for

companies

to

say,

yes,

we're

podcasting

2.0

compliant.

We

have

chapters,

transcripts,

and

all

these

nice,

easy

to

understand

things.

We

bring

along

the

audience

with

us.

And

then

guess

what,

there's

another

version

of

podcasting.

It's

called

3.0.

Oh,

right.

What's

in

this

one

now?

Now

I've

got

the

elephant's

trunk

and

I've

got

its

tail,

and

I've

got

one

foot.

I

can

get

my

head

around

the

body

now,

and

maybe

the

ears

are

next

and

maybe

I

can

understand.

And

then

I

can

put

it

all

together

and

go,

oh,

I

see.

This

is

the

new

podcasting

thing.

This

is

the

whole

elephant.

But

I

think

we're

asking

people

to

understand

what

a

whole

elephant

is

when

they

can

only

feel

or

understand

parts

of

it.

And

that's

my

problem.

And

I

think

Tom

Webster

said

it

very

well.

Podcasting

2.0

apps

have

failed

because

as

an

app

developer,

we

are

not

gaining

market

share

in

the

way

that

Spotify

and

YouTube

are

doing

it.

And

so

therefore

are

all

of

our

efforts

leading

to

nothing.

I'm

not

a

developer,

but

I

have

a

chatbot

that

tells

me

I

am.

And

I

certainly

wouldn't

want

to

debate

Tom

Webster

on

his

knowledge

in,

like,

let's

say,

the

ad

tech

industry

or

the

ad

industry

for

podcasting.

But

I

see

a

world,

you

know,

where

I

hear

Todd

talk

about,

well,

we

have

a

way

to

look

at,

let's

say,

completion

rate

of

episode

listening

with

chapters,

right?

Let's

say

we

got

the

chapter

tag.

And

maybe

why

I'm

so

critical

or

what

made

me

critical

of

Tom's

post

was

I

would

love

to

see

Tom,

and

maybe

he

is,

and

I

just

don't

know

it.

Like,

advocate

for

okay

ad

platforms

or

large

publishers.

Like,

we've

got

this

chapter

thing

over

here.

And

see

down

there

in

podcasting

2.0,

there's

this

tag

called

Chapters.

We

can

tie

up

a

way

of

reporting

on

completion

rate

by

just

leveraging.

Let's

say

this

chapter

tag,

you

complete

the

chapter.

We

know

you've

made

it

XYZ

through

the

episode.

And

by

the

way,

chapters,

we

can

display

an

ad

or

something

like

that,

an

impression

for

your

brand.

I

would

love

to

see

those

efforts

tied

in.

Now,

that

would

also

mean

that

Tom

would

come

with

some

data

or

some

feedback

from

big

ad

tech.

And

that

means

folks

in

the

podcasting

2.0

world

would

have

to

look

at

that

and

say,

okay,

critical

feedback.

Let's

adopt

it.

Let's

think

about

it.

Let's

not

shun

it

away

because

it

came

from,

you

know,

Amazon

or

some,

you

know,

big

publisher

that

we

don't

like

to,

you

know,

align

with.

Let's

look

at

it

respectively,

just

like

Tom's

respecting

the

podcast

2.0

tags.

I

would

love

to

see

that

world

where,

you

know,

Tom

is

that

conduit

to

ad

tech

and

advertiser

advertisers

out

there

and

leverage

some

of

this

technology

so

that

we

can

see

something

happen,

you

know,

in

that

space.

Once

again,

tiny

little

tag

pulled

out

of

podcasting

2.0

that

makes

a

good

impact

or

a

big

impact.

It

doesn't

have

to

be

the

whole

enchilada,

you

know.

You

know,

I

don't

go

to

therapy.

I

should.

But

I've

been

thinking.

I've

been

thinking

about

why

I

am

like

this.

I

am

the

way

that

I

am.

And

you

know,

Tom

wrote

an

article

that

uses

the

brand

name

Saab,

right?

From

automobiles.

I

grew

up

in

a

General

Motors

dealership

and

General

Motors,

right.

My

family

owned

a

General

Motors

dealership.

Most

of

us

lives,

most

of

us

grew

up

in

a

home.

But

it's

very

nice

to

know

you

grew

up

in

a

dealership.

Maybe

that

explains

a

lot.

Quite

quite

literally,

like,

quite

literally

worked

there

when

I

was

like

5,

until

I

was

20

something.

But

I

always,

like,

I

just

grew

up

in

a

space

where

General

Motors

was

constantly

telling

you

what

to

do,

right?

Here's

the

cars

you

have

to

sell.

Here's.

Here's

how

much

money

you

get

for

advertising

in

this

pool.

Everything

else

figured

out

yourself.

And

it

was

this

constant,

like,

breathing

down

our

necks.

And

maybe

as

I

had

this

therapeutic

moment

is

that's,

you

know,

this,

you

know,

corporate

overlord

is

stuff

that

I've

never

been,

been

able

to

jive

with

because

I

grew

up

watching

my

father

pull

his

hair

out

going,

I

can't

do

this

because

of

what

GM

is

doing.

And

then

they

went

bankrupt.

And

that's

a

whole

other

story.

But,

you

know,

that's,

that's

how

I've

sort

of

gotten

to

this,

this

place

in

my

life.

How

do

we

fix

it?

We

can

moan

and

groan,

we

can

talk

about

it.

It

succeeded.

If

you

listen

to

Adam

and

Dave,

it's

a

massive

success.

Look

at

the

adoption.

Look

at

all

this.

And

I

don't

decry

them.

What

I

said

was,

when

Danny

and

Mark

used

the

Clickbait,

has

podcasting

2.0

failed?

They

could

have

equally

said,

has

podcasting

2.0

succeeded?

And

then

we

could

have

said,

what

does

success

look

like?

And

Adam

and

Dave

gave

their

opinion

of

what

success

looks

like.

And

that's

fine.

Tom

Webster

doesn't

think

that

their

opinion

of

success

is

the

same

as

his

opinion

of

what

success

looks

like.

So

there

is

a

gap

between

the

two.

And

what

does

podcasting

3

to

0

then

have

to

be?

What

do

the

apps

have

to

do?

Tom

wants

a

big

shiny

button

and

he

wants

serendipity.

I

actually,

and

I'm

probably

going

to

be

laughed

out

of

every

podcast

in

the

future,

I

would

say

Web

4.0.

Oh,

my

God,

did

he

just

say

that?

Web

4.0

is

Gentic

AI.

It's

the

idea

of

an

interface

that

will

be

personalized

to

us,

voice

enabled,

potentially.

We've

all

moved

the

creepy

line,

as

I

call

it.

We

now

probably

have

a

Google

home,

Alexa

or

whatever

in

our

house.

We've

all

interfaced

to

some

sort

of

voice

system.

Even

if

dumb

siri

can't

understand

a

word

we

say,

but

we've

all

tried

it,

and

now

we're

getting

more

intelligent

versions

of

that

and

their

interfaces

to

the

web.

And

I

think

what

we're

going

to

see

with

podcasting

4.0.

God,

there's

another

one

to

add

to

the

book

is

going

to

be

a

user

interface

where.

Hey,

Matt,

you've

got

three

comments,

you've

got

a

new

podcast

ready

for

you,

and

you're

in

the

car,

hands

free,

and

it's

talking.

And

I

think

Adam

and

Dave

have

even

said

they've

called

it

the

Rachel

Maddow

Problem,

which

is

they

don't

want

to

see

the

podcasting

1.0,

2.0,

structure

of

lists

and

playlists.

And

have

I

got

through

my

email

list,

Have

I

read

all

the

episodes

or

listened

to

all

the

episodes?

Have

I

got

through

everything?

Right,

I'm

ready

for

next

week.

And

Rachel

Madder

was

talking

about

how

she

wants

a

destination,

a

community,

an

end

point.

And

I

think

we're

beginning

to

hear

things

like

content,

commerce

and

community

being

the

driving

factor.

You

hear

that

from

Substack,

you

hear

that

from

YouTube,

you

hear

it

from

other

platforms

that

are

trying

to

make

that

happen.

Podpage.

And

I

think

those

are

the

driving

thoughts.

And

now

we've

got

to

look

at,

oh,

dare

I

say

it,

going

back

to

Portals,

even

My

Word,

you

know,

let's

go.

Everything

comes

full

circle.

Yeah,

well,

Mike

Homer,

who

was

the

driver

at

Netscape

for

the

Netscape

Portal,

helped

or

instigated

creating

rss.

It

wasn't

Dave

Weiner.

And

the

idea

was

that

RSS

would

bring

you

the

weather,

the

sport,

the

news,

and

then

it

would

be

created

onto

a

portal

page.

And

Adam

and

Dave

are

fundamentally

saying,

the

Rachel

Maddow

problem

is

what

I

want

to

create

Rachel

Maddow

World,

and

I

want

that

world

to

be

my

blog,

my

events,

my

merch,

my

podcast,

whatever.

And

it

all

comes

to

one

portal

page.

So

I

think

that's

where

we're

heading.

And

then

there's

an

interface

layer

on

top

that

will

be

voice.

How

we

get

there,

how

soon

we

get

there,

I

have

no

idea.

But

my

bigger

question

to

you,

Matt,

is

who's

going

to

lead

the

charge?

Because

as

I

said

when

I

woke

up

and

said,

well,

if

I

want

to

call

it

podcasting

3.0,

who

do

I

have

to

ask

permission?

Do

I

have

to

go

to

Adam

and

say,

adam,

is

it

okay

that

we

now

start

calling

this

podcasting

3.0?

And

Adam

will

say,

I'm

not

the

leader.

So

then

I'll

look

at

the

Pod

stage

Davey,

Can

I

call

it

podcast?

No.

Nothing

to

do

with

me,

mate.

Then

I

go,

James

Cridland,

do

I

ask

you?

Nope.

Okay.

Head

of

Amazon,

head

of

Apple,

head

of

Spotify,

who's

the

person

who's

going

to

anoint

it

and

say,

yes,

I

grant

you

the

permission

to

use

it

as

podcasting

3.0.

And

that

goes

back

to

Tom's

premise.

There

is

no

one

at

the

tiller.

Yeah.

So

I'll

get

kicked

out

of

all

the

podcast

events

alongside

of

you.

Good,

because

I

just.

A

quick

couple

threads

of

thought

here.

This

is

why

I

am

such

a

huge

advocate

for

open

source

and

why

I

think

my

task

in

my

online

career

life

is

to

advocate

for

open

source.

It

doesn't

mean

I'm

a

fanatic.

I'm

not

using

the

graphene

OS

phone

and,

like,

I'm

detached

from,

you

know,

cell

carriers.

But

open

source,

very

important,

because

I

think

I

don't

have

an

answer

of

who

leads

it,

but

I

think

what

we'll

see

is

this

trend

in

people

realizing

that,

oh,

like

the

Maddow

Effect.

Yes,

every

publisher

should

be

omnichannel.

And

quite

frankly,

we

had

a

stimulus,

a

steroid

of

traffic

when

we

had

Covid.

Right?

That's

when

I

got

hired

at

casos.

Podcast

hosting.

I

mean,

we

were

selling

podcast

hosting

accounts

left

and

right.

Private

podcast

feeds

was

a

thing

companies

were

doing

because

that's

how

they

were

communicating

to

people

at

home.

It

was

a

massive

shot

of.

Of

purchasing

and

consumers

coming

into

podcasting.

And

now

we

see

this

dip.

We

also

see

this

dip

from

organic

traff.

We

see

this

dip

from

social

media

traffic

because

there's

just

so

much

noise

and

Google's

losing

search

and

AI

is

up

and

coming.

So

a

publisher

who's

trying

to

stay

afloat

without

big

money

or

without

betting

on

ads

needs

omnichannel,

audio,

video,

written

newsletter

and

community,

right?

It's

the

whole

stack

that

we

need

and

what

I'm

looking

for

in

the

future.

This

is

the

crazy

theory

part,

is

with

the

introduction

of

AI,

you

want

to

have

these

open

standards

to

build

from,

because

now

people

can

build

that

stack

like

Rachel

Maddow

can

build

that

stack,

let's

say,

with

AI.

Proofread

all

your

code,

people,

before

James

throws

a

shoe

at

me.

Don't

ship

bad

code.

Understand

what

you're

doing.

But

the

point

is,

open

source

allows

us

to

have

that

framework

so

that,

okay,

I

want

to

build

from

that.

I

want

to

build

my

own

stack,

my

own

community,

with

all

of

my

content

in

my

little

website

app,

right?

Matt

can

build

a

tiny

Tiny

version

of

Trufans

just

for

Matt's

content.

Or

Trufans

can

build

the

portal

for

Matt

and

Matt

can

adopt

that.

I

think

this

is

why

we

need

to

keep

open

source

available

so

that

we

have

something

to

pull

from

so

that

it's

not

closed

source

and

that

innovation

doesn't.

Just

doesn't

come

from

closed

source

software

when

it

comes

to,

you

know,

podcasting,

listening

experiences,

you

know,

so

my

crazy

world

is

advocate

for

this

stuff,

let

people

know

that

RSS

is

alive

and

well,

dare

I

say

that,

and

that

we

have

a

framework

to

pull

from.

And

maybe

the

new

leaders

come

from

the

market

shift.

YouTube

is

great

now

they

want

podcasts,

they're

friendly

with

podcasts.

But

how

many

times

have

we

seen

something

end

up

in

the

Google

graveyard?

Right.

It's

only

a

matter

of

time.

Hey,

YouTube's

the

biggest

place

for

podcasting.

Yes.

Because

they

quite

literally

shut

down

the

Google

podcast

app

and

they

said,

all

of

you

come

over

here

now.

So

yes,

okay,

great.

It's

the.

Because

it's

the

only

place

on

Google

I

literally

have

to

put

my

podcast

now.

So

I

think

what

we'll

see

is

this

market

shift

where

eventually

the

top

level

money

dries

out

at

the

big

places.

They

tighten

the

grip

around

like

distribution

and

what

you

can

do

with

the

podcast.

And

inevitably,

like

it

happened

to

Spotify

and

then,

then

YouTube

came

in,

inevitably

another

player

shows

up.

But

I

think

the

new

leadership

are

gonna

come

from

people

who

are

looking

at

these

big

platforms

going,

you

know

what?

I

actually

don't

need

that.

I

don't

need

to

be

on

YouTube

anymore.

I

can

spin

up

actually

my

own

little

video

library

because

AI

has

helped

me

do

it.

And

cost

of

distributing

video

at

a

small

scale

actually

isn't

that

bad.

So

I

can

start

to

build

my

own

omnichannel

stack.

The

Maddow

effect

once

again.

Yeah,

I

don't

have

a

direct

answer

who

will

lead

it,

but

I

have

a

hope

that

more

people

will

spin

up

their

own

efforts

leveraging

podcasting

2.0

and

other

open

source

efforts

to

serve

their

audience.

Yeah,

again,

I

don't

know

who

will

lead

the

charge,

but

Aesop's

Fable

comes

to

mind.

The

tortoise

and

the

hare.

Closed

systems

are

always

the

hare.

They

are

always

the

ones

who

have

the

deeper

pockets,

the

better

marketing,

the

engineering

teams

that

can

go

and

build

proprietary

technology.

But

it's

the

tortoise,

behind

which

I

think

is

the

open

source

that

then

comes

back.

And

eventually

look

at

the

thing

that

makes

me

laugh

the

most.

When

I

was

at

Netscape,

we

fought

ie

and

Now,

IE

is

basically

Chrome,

so

Microsoft

Edge

is

Chrome

and

Chrome

is

basically

Firefox.

And

Firefox

is

basically

Netscape.

Right?

So

the

thing

came

full

circle

eventually

where

Microsoft

adopted

the

open

standard

underlying

it,

Right?

And

I

think,

I

don't

suspect

that

Spotify

or

YouTube

will

do

anything

anytime

soon.

They

don't

need

to.

They've

got

massive

revenues

and

massive

market

share.

But

I

do

think

that

there

will

be

a

point

where

they

go,

how

can

we

evolve?

And

the

thing

that

I

do

hope,

and

this

is

my

last

point,

I

guess,

is

Apple

is

missing

in

action.

I

think

Apple

could

be

the

champion

of

the

open

standards

community.

I

think

Apple

could

be

the

counterweight

to

Spotify

and

YouTube.

And

they're

failing.

They're

just

failing.

You

know,

I

joke

with

James,

the

IE7

of

podcasting,

you

know,

they're

an

awful

client.

They've

not

innovated

for

God

knows

how

long.

And

my

worry

is

that,

you

know,

Apple

themselves.

This

week,

Mark

Gruber

basically

threw

Apple

under

the

bus.

The

number

one

Apple

fan

basically

said

he

Apple

Intelligence

is

another

year

away.

It's

failed.

And

I

think

when

I

look

at

what

we

started

off

with

saying

that

how

great

the

podcasting

2.0

community

has

got

to

get

transcripts

and

the

TXT

tags

into

Apple.

I

want

Apple

then

to

adopt

the

person

tag

and

the

other

tags,

the

location

tag

and

all

these

tags

and

be

that

company

that

is

the

champion

of

podcasting

2.0

or

the

new

namespace,

and

adopt

as

many

tags

as

they

can.

And

only

then

do

I

think

we'll

get

a

counterweight

to

Spotify

and

YouTube

because

Apple

has

the

marketing

clout

behind

them

and

the

market

share

to

do

it.

But

yeah,

here's

the

kicker.

Don't

hold

your

breath

because

they're

not

going

to

do

it.

Yeah,

well,

yeah,

I

guess

never

say

never.

But

I

agree

with

you.

Like,

there

needs

to

be

a

continued

champion

for

podcasting

2.0.

Right

now

it's

still

herding

cats,

which

are,

you

know,

the

community

behind

podcasting

2.0,

the

hosts,

the

app

developers

and

the

podcasters.

Right.

Getting

everyone

on

board.

And,

you

know,

I

think

that

all

I

can

do

is

continue

to

advocate

for

it

so

that

light

doesn't

burn

out,

in

my

opinion.

Matt.

Matt

Medeiros,

thank

you

so

much.

Thank

you

for

coming

on

and

sharing

your

thoughts

with

us.

Podcasting

2.0,

3.0,

4.0

is

not

going

to

die

and

there

are

too

many

good

people

behind

it.

But

I

do

think

it's

not

going

to

go

as

fast

or

as

far

as

people

think.

And

it

may

take

a

little

time

for

the

tortoise

to

catch

up

to

the

hare,

but

when

it

does,

look

out,

hare.

And

we're

going

to

win.

I

agree.

I

agree,

Sam.

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