It's

Friday

7th

March

2025.

The

last

word

in

Podcasting

news

This

is

the

Pod

News

Weekly

Review

with

James

Kridlin

and

Sam

Sethi.

I'm

James

Kridlin,

the

editor

of

Pod

News

in

a

blowy

Brisbane.

And

I'm

Sam

Sethi,

the

CEO

of

Trufant

in

a

very

misty,

cold,

wet

England.

We

really

made

this

whole

thing

about

first

party

data,

understanding

what

people

are

doing.

You

can

really

see

what's

working.

That's

Adam

Curry.

He's

talking

with

Dave

Jo

about

Godcaster

plus,

how

powerful

are

live

podcasts?

What

does

Apple

Verified

actually

mean?

What's

happening

with

Wondery

and

YouTube?

1

billion

listeners,

really.

This

podcast

is

sponsored

by

Buzzsprout

with

the

tools,

support

and

community

to

ensure

you

keep

podcasting.

Start

podcasting.

Keep

podcasting

with

Buzzsprout.com

from

your

daily.

Newsletter

the

Pod

News

Weekly

Review.

Now,

Adam

Curry,

the

co

inventor

of

podcasting

and

Dave

Jones,

a

key

innovator

behind

podcast,

have

a

new

project

called

the

Godcaster

Godcaster

fm

if

you

want

to

go

there.

It's

a

new

podcasting

platform

with

a

simple

mission

to

empower

local

broadcasters,

churches

and

ministries

to

reach

wider

audiences

through

innovative

podcasting

and

monetization

tools.

Have

you

been

to

Godcaster

yet,

James?

I

have

been

to

Godcaster.

I

think

it's

a

very

interesting

solution

to

a

particular

problem

in

that

part

of

the

media.

You

started

by

asking

Adam

Currie,

what

is

the

God

and

why

did

he

want

to

bring

it

out?

The

Godcaster

came

about

over

a

year

ago.

Someone

who

had

seen

me

speak

at

the

Spark

Media

conference

in

Houston

came

to

me

and

he

said,

you

know,

I've

got

this

thing.

It's

not

an

app,

it's

a

service.

It's

for

radio

stations.

I

hear

all

these

cool

things

about

the

podcast

index.

Can

you

tell

me

about

it?

So

I

chatted

with

him

and

then

he

came

back

again.

He

had

some

more

questions

and

by

the

third

or

fourth

time,

his

name

is

Gordon

Marcy.

By

the

third

or

fourth

time

I

had

started

to

put

together

what

was

going

on

and

he's

been

in

the

radio

business

all

of

his

life

at

big

networks

like

Salem.

And

these

are

all

faith

based

broadcast

organizations

and

stations.

The

solution

he

had

was

a

podcast

player

for

radio

stations.

And

as

I

was

talking

with

him

more

and

more,

I

learned

that

there's

a

real

conundrum

with

radio.

Not

like

we

didn't

know

it,

local

programming

has

gone

away.

Most

of

this

is

nationally

syndicated

content

which

also

is

available

on

a

podcast.

The

stations

are

literally

sending

their

audience

Away

to

places

where

they

can

get

podcasts.

This

is

an

interesting

part

of

faith

based

radio

in

the

United

States.

It's

pretty

much

value

for

value.

The

stations

ask

for

support.

And

between

the

stations

and

the

content

programming,

there's

been

this

issue

for

40

years

of

how

do

I

know

that

someone

was

listening

to

your

program

on

my

radio

station,

gave

you

a

donation,

but

I

don't

know

about

it?

And

so

we're

supposed

to

share

revenue.

In

some

cases,

the

big

content

providers

will

buy

the

airtime

again,

they

need

to

know

where

did

it

come

from.

And

it's

been

this

big

problem

that's

been

discussed

even

at

the

National

Religious

Broadcasters

conference

where

I

was

last

week

with

5,000

people

show

up.

It's

been

this

issue

where

they

just

can't

figure

out

what

they

call

attribution.

This

can

all

be

easily

solved

with

a

lot

of

these

2.0

features

that

we've

developed

over

time.

The

oh,

wow.

Moment

of

all

these

broadcasters

who

said,

wait

a

minute,

now

the

station

knows

that

someone

hit

donate

and

we

know

it

as

well.

Why,

yes.

Oh,

you've

solved

a

40

year

old

problem.

Seems

simple

to

us.

Sometimes

you

just

need

some

fresh

thinking.

We

really

made

this

whole

thing

about

first

party

data,

understanding

what

people

are

doing

in

the

player,

whether

it's

in

a

podcast

app

or

whether

it's

their

own

app.

You

can

really

see

what's

working.

And

this

is

another

thing.

Well,

in

podcasting

in

general,

we've

never

really

had

that.

As

of

yesterday,

we

now

have,

I

want

to

say,

249

stations

who

are

using

Godcaster.

Any

radio

station

could

use

it,

obviously,

but

for

Dave

and

I,

it

has

the

added

advantage

of

we're

doing

this

for

Jesus.

So

we're

super

happy

about

it.

Okay.

Dave.

Hello.

How

are

you?

I'm

good,

Sam.

Now,

Adam

Curry,

you've

known

for

how

long?

Oh,

gosh,

gosh.

Fifteen

years.

Fifteen

years,

yeah.

Yeah.

Adam's

come

to

you

on

several

occasions

to

say,

hey,

I've

got

a

great

idea

for

a

business.

How

about

you

do

it

with

me?

The

last

one

being

the

podcast

index,

obviously.

So

what

did

you

think

when

he

said,

I've

got

this

great

idea

for

Godcaster,

and

what

did

you

think?

Yeah,

let's

do

it

all.

Oh,

my

God,

not

again.

There's

a.

There's

always

a

little.

An

equal

amount

of

both

involved

in

every.

In

every

one

of

those.

But

we're.

My

standard

answer

to

Adam

whenever

he

says,

hey,

let's

do

so

and

so

is

yes.

And

then

we'll

figure

it

out

later.

We'll

figure

out

actually

how

to

do

it

later.

So

I

just

always

answer

yes

first

and

then

figure

out

later

if

it's

actually

possible,

you

know.

So,

yeah,

the

same,

same

thing

here.

I

love

it.

That

Jim

Carrey

film,

yes

man,

where

he

says

yes

to

everything.

Yeah,

exactly,

exactly.

Okay,

so

let's,

let's

take

a

little

step

back.

How

long

is

it

taken

you

to

build

this

platform

and

where

did

you

start?

I

mean,

you've

got

a

blank

piece

of

paper,

you're

looking

at

it

and

you're

going,

how

do

I

build

this

thing?

So

what

did

you

do?

We

sort

of

took

over

an

existing

product

with

Gordon's

product

that

was

called

Glory

Stone.

And

so

I

determined

early

on

that

I

was

just

going

to

rebuild

that

thing

from

scratch.

It

was

an

older

platform.

I

mean,

it

still

worked

well.

There's

an

older

platform

that

had

been

sort

of

upgraded

over

the

years

to

have

sort

of

more

modern

features,

but

the

core

of

it

was

still

sort

of

an

old

lamp

based

application,

PHP

MySQL

that

was

just

showing

its

age.

So

I

just

determined

to

build

from

scratch

and

initially

replicate

all

the

features

that

we

thought

that

the

current

customers

couldn't

live

without.

And

then

at

the

same

time,

sort

of

weave

in

the

newer

stuff

that

we

knew

we

were

going

to

be

needing

to

bring

the

product

up

to

what

we

wanted

it

to

be.

So

it

took,

I

mean,

it

was

rapid,

lots

of

late

night,

early

morning

coding

sessions

to

get

this

thing

up

and

running

in

about

five

months.

So

it

went

from

zero

to

launched

in

five

months

to

be

ready

for

discussion

about

it

and

selling

it

in

RB

for

people

who

would

want

it.

So

that,

that

was

the

time

frame.

You

know,

we

pretty

much

hit

everything

we

wanted

to

achieve.

By

then.

The

way

me

and

Adam

have

always

worked

has

kind

of

been

that

way.

We

just

go,

go,

go,

go,

go

as

fast

as

possible

and

then

trying

to

hit

a

target.

And

then

at

the

end,

we

kind

of

sit

back

and

say,

okay,

where

are

we

at?

Let's

go

clean

up

the

mess.

Let's

go,

you

know,

polish

things

up

here

and

this

kind

of

thing.

So

that's.

We're

kind

of

used

to

working

that

way.

We

were

building

it,

you

know,

building

the

airplane

in

flight,

to

be

honest,

you

know,

because

we

had

customers,

there

were

existing

customers

who

had

m.

And

it

would

literally

be.

The

customer

would

say,

hey,

you

know,

my

window

popped

out

here.

I'm

about

to

get

sucked

out

of

the

airplane.

And

we

go,

Dave,

we're

losing

passengers,

man.

So

it

is

the

way

we've

worked.

There's

nothing

more

fantastic

than

working

with

Live

customers.

There's

also

nothing

more

scary

with

working

with

live

customers.

And

I

just

want

to

say,

as

you

said,

I've

worked

with

Dave

on

many

projects.

Some

things

have

just

been

for

us.

Some

things

have

Podcast

index,

which

is

the

most

successful,

but

of

course

we

have

zero

income

from

it,

which

is.

Which

was

never

the

intent.

The

things

that

Dave

builds

are

rock

solid.

The

systems

stay

up.

And

he's

never

really

done

a

user

interface.

He's

done

user

experience

ux,

but

really

a

beautiful

UI

is

something

he's

never

done

and,

man,

he

knocked

it

out

of

the

park.

It

really.

It's

a

beautiful,

beautiful

product.

Thanks.

Congratulations

to

you

both.

So

what

is

the

platform?

Because

it's

not

what

I

would

have

thought

you

would

have

gone

for

originally,

which

would

be

a

native

iOS

app.

That's

what

we're

all

told

to

do.

So

why

did

you

make

the

decision

to

go

and

build

what

Adam's

nicely

called

a

universal

web

app

rather

than

a

progressive

app?

Like

with

everything

that

we

do,

It's

a

little

hard

to

explain.

This

really

isn't

a

podcast

app.

This

is

something

really

different

than

that.

The

thing

about

the

linear

to

digital

transformation

for

radio,

that

if

all

you

do

is

just

transfer

that

broadcast

linear

audience

to

a

website

player,

you've

really

done

nothing.

The

problem

with

Glorystone,

the

old

player,

was

that

it

was

purely

just

a

website

player

and

it

was

no

different

than

a

podcast

app,

but

you

just

had

to

go

to

this

radio

station's

website

to

do

it.

So

that's

just

as

restrictive

as

broadcast,

maybe

even

more

so.

What

we

did

was

we

said,

okay,

you're

going

to

have

a

web

player

because

that's

helpful

to

the

customer

people.

Their

audience

wants

that.

We're

going

to

build

a

web

player

that's

installable

on

any

radio

station's

website

and

they

can

plug

in

all

the

different

content,

all

the

different

podcasts

that

they

play

on

air.

They'll

plug

that

in

to

make

an

on

demand.

What's

essentially

an

on

demand

guide

in

a

player

on

their

website.

But

every

player

they

build

also

spawns

an

RSS

feed

that

has

all

of

those

shows

in

it.

And

that

RSS

feed

is

branded

to

the

station.

So

the

station

gets

their

own

RSS

feed

that

will

hold

all

of

the

podcast

content

and

gets

essentially

redistributed

back

out

to

the

podcast

index

and

other

directories,

so

that

now

KHCB's

customers

or

listeners

can

subscribe,

not

to

just

focus

on

the

family,

they

can

subscribe

to

KHCB

itself.

And

by

doing

that,

they're

going

to

get

Focus

on

the

family

and

all

of

KHCB's

other

national

content

and

KHCB's

local

content.

They're

going

to

get

all

of

this

stuff

in

a

single

feed

that

they

can

then

subscribe

to

in

a

normal

podcast

app.

Something

like

True

Fans,

Apple

Podcasts,

Overcast,

Podverse,

Podcast

Guru,

all

the

2.0

apps.

It's

a

standard

podcast

feed

with

2.0

namespace

enhancements

in

it.

That's

the

thing

that

we

took

to

it

is

we,

yes,

our

player,

we're

proud

of

it

and

we're

glad

that

it,

that

it

works

well,

but

we're

just

as

happy

for

people

to

not

even

use

our

player

at

all,

but

instead

to

subscribe

to

these

radio

stations

podcast

feeds

in

their

own

podcast

app.

Now

you're

allowing

your

listener

as

a

station,

you're

allowing

your

listener

to

listen

to

you,

including

your

live

broadcast

because

it

uses,

we

use

the

live

item

tag.

Now

they

can

listen

to

you

in

their

own

most

convenient,

preferable

way,

which

is

the

podcast

app.

It

really

doesn't

matter

who's

listening

to

your

content

and

where.

We

want

to

accommodate

all

of

that

and

then

give

them

some

stats

that

will

show

them

what's

happening.

We

support

the

live

tag,

we

support

funding,

support

the

value

tag

chapters.

We

pass

all

that

stuff

through

and

then

we

add

some

of

it

as

well

for

like

location

tag.

We

also

support

Pod

Ping,

of

course,

for

live

broadcasts

and

all

that

kind

of

thing.

A

lot

of

that

stuff

is

interdependent

and

we

built

that

out.

But

then

we

also

have

this

other

huge

list

of

things

we

have

to

support

and

that's

going

to

be

what

comes

next.

So

we

have,

you

know,

we're

going

to

be

supporting

sound

bites

and

transcripts,

publisher

feeds,

all

the

value

time

splits,

just

pretty

much

all

this

stuff

is

on

the

to

do

list.

And

the

publisher

feed

is

great

because

what

we're

allowing

and

through

various

partnerships,

we're

going

to

be

able

to

allow

the

radio

stations

to

make

it

easier

to

push

their

own

content

out

through

the

traditional

podcast

hosting

platforms

that

we

always

have

had

good

relationships

with,

Buzzsprout,

RSS.com,

blueberry,

all

these

guys,

and

then

even

in

the

newer

2.0

focused

hosts

as

well.

So

we're

going

to

leverage

all

those

relationships

we've

built

over

the

last

nearly

five

years

to

help

the

radio

stations

build

up

their

own

content

catalog.

And

then

we'll

be

able

to

put

all

that

stuff

into

a

publisher

feed

like

you're

talking

about.

Then

the

radio

station

has

their

own

master

feed

that

say,

you

know,

that

shows

Their

brand,

everything

and

then

underneath

that,

all

of

their

content.

So

yeah,

I

think

you're,

I

think

you're

just

sort

of

anticipating

where

we're

headed

as

well.

So

with

all

of

this

now

out

in

the

open

and

you've

got

a

clear

pathway

forward,

just

very

quickly

you've

got

this

other

project,

you

know,

podcast

index

2.0.

Where

do

you

see

that

taking

shape

in

2025?

What's

going

on

in

your

heads

that

you

think

we're

healthy,

this

is

happening.

Where

are

your

thoughts

on

it

currently?

I

would

say

that

I

think

we're

in

a

good

place.

The

podcast

index

and

the

namespace,

they've

hit

a

point

where

people

are

comfortable

with

the

technology

I

think

now.

And

so

we

just

had

a

big

discussion

this

week

about

the

images

tag

and

about

how

to

re

engineer

that

thing

to

be

good.

And

so

now

we're

looking

at,

you

know,

I'm

processing

things

mentally

as

how

do

we

need

to

sort

of

shape

the

way

we

do

tags

and

the

way

we

do

namespace

work

going

forward

to

sort

of

fit

this

new

model?

You

know,

in

the

beginning

it

was,

nobody

knew

what

we

were

doing,

nobody

understood

any

of

this

stuff.

You

know,

we're

having

to

deal

with

pent

up

demand

for

new

features

for

the,

you

know,

for

15

years

worth

of

content.

So

we

were

just

going

to

go,

typical

fashion,

just

go,

go,

go,

go,

go

as

fast

as

we

can.

That

really

has

changed.

And

so

now

things

are

at

a

slower

pace.

And

I

think,

you

know,

going

forward,

I

think

we're

probably

going

to

focus

on

just

one

or

two

things

with

each

phase

of

the

podcast

namespace

because

there's

still,

I

mean,

there's

still

dozens

of

apps

out

there

that

don't

even

support

a

single

tag.

You

know,

Even

though

there's

600,000

feeds

out

there

that

support

the

Podcasting

2.0

namespace,

there's

maybe

more

than

that.

I

haven't

counted

in

a

while.

There's

so

much

content

that

has

the

Podcasting

2.0

namespace

tags

in

it.

But

many,

many

podcast

apps

just

still

don't

even

support

number

the

very

first

one,

something

easy

like

transcripts.

So

I

think

there's

no

need

to

just

rush,

rush,

rush

anymore.

But

at

the

same

time

I

think

we

need,

it's

good

because

now

we

can

just

slow

down,

have

our

focus

on

one

thing

and

then

with

the

namespace

and

then

on

the

index

side,

I

think

we're

shifting

focus

to

decentralizing

because

we

don't

want

to

just

become

another

Apple

with

a

directory

that

everybody's

dependent

on.

Even

Though

it's

open.

So

we

want

to

decentralize

that

as

we

can.

I

think

we're

getting

to

the

point

in

the

index

and

the

namespace

where

we're

a

mature

technology

and

now

our

focus

gets

to

shift

to

sort

of

mature,

more

important

things.

So

what

Dave

said

about

decentralizing

the

index,

you

know,

we

have

kind

of

said

from

the

get

go,

the

podcast

index,

our

job

is

to

eliminate

ourselves.

And

that

means

there's,

you

know,

whether

it's

distributed

hash

space

or

however

we

wind

up

doing

it.

And

there's

some

amazing,

amazing

things

being

done.

I

would

love

to

see

Pod

Ping

integrated

more.

I

did

a

presentation

at

NRB

in

the

ballroom

and

I

showed

the

tiles.podping.org

and

people

just,

their

minds

were

boggling,

like,

wait

a

minute,

this

exists?

How

does

that

happen?

How

do

I

get

my

podcast

updating

that

way?

And

with

Godcaster

itself,

I

hope

that

we

can

show

a

path

for

developers.

You

know,

you're

doing

this

with

true

fans,

is

to

show

that

you

don't

have

to

just

create

another

podcast

app.

You

can

create

an

experience

or

an

interface

or

a

service

for

a

group

of

people

who

want

to

use

podcast

technology

and

specifically

podcasting

2.0,

since

there's

such

a

rich

environment.

So

this,

I

think,

is

where

we

can

have

great

success.

Instead

of,

you

know,

as

I

lovingly

call

the

podcast

industrial

complex,

focusing

on

what

share

does

this

app

have?

Well,

that's

going

to

remain

kind

of

the

same

for

a

long,

long

time.

But

meanwhile,

as

we've

proven

with

Value

for

Value

in

general,

you

can

make

a

living,

you

can

make

your

product

successful

with

a

smaller

demographic

in

this

highly

connected

world.

So

certainly

on

the

Podcasting

2.0

podcast,

which

is

where

the

name

came

from,

although

it

became

kind

of

its

beast,

is

to

show

more

of

that.

And

as

more

of

these

experiences

are

developed,

I

think

you'll

see

the

rest

of

the

industry

come

along

with

that.

Adam

Curry,

Dave

Jones,

I

could

talk

to

you

for

hours

on

this,

but

thank

you

very

much.

Now,

where

would

anyone

go,

Adam,

for

getting

more

information

about

the

app

itself?

Well,

the

service,

Godcaster

fm,

Godcaster

fm.

And

really

appreciate

the

work

that

you

do,

Sam,

and

that

Jake

James

does.

Power,

as

we

call

it.

Power

is

one

of,

you

know,

certainly

one

of

my

weekly

listens.

I

wish

we

would

have

coordinated

better

for

this

interview

when

we

all

would

have

had

a

glass

of

red

wine

to

go

with

it,

because

we

know

that

that's

usually

how

you're

listening

to

our

show.

Absolutely.

The

only

way.

And

Dave,

anyone

wanting

to

help

get

involved

with

it

maybe

give

you

some,

you

know,

get

involved

with

the

API.

Where

would

they

go

for

any

of

that

stuff?

Just,

just

reach

out

to

me

and

we

can,

we

can

help

help

them

out

on

that.

And

you

know,

we.

The.

The

thing

about

Godcaster

is

under

the,

under

the,

under

the

hood,

you

know,

sort

of

double

under

the

hood,

it's

all

podcast

index.

So

anybody

who

is

already

familiar

with

the

index

and

the

way

that

works

can,

can

help

here

too.

So

we're,

we're

sort

of

eating

our

own

dog

food

in

that

way.

And

on

behalf

of

the

community,

just

for

me,

I'd

like

to

say

thank

you

to

you

both

publicly

for

all

the

work

you've

done

for

the

podcast

index.

It's

massively

appreciated.

You

may

not

hear

it

all

the

time,

but

just

know

that

we

do

appreciate

what

you

do.

Thank

you,

Sam.

Thank

you.

Adam

Currie,

the

co

inventor

of

podcasting

and

Dave

Jones.

There

is

a

much

longer

version

of

that

interview

that

you

will

hear

in

this

very

feed

on

Monday.

Sam,

what

did

you

think

of

that?

Well,

it's

great

that

they

built

on

podcasting

2.0

and

the

podcast

Index,

so

they've

built

a

application

platform

for

themselves.

I

mean,

Adam's

track

record

in

radio

gives

him

an

insight

into

some

of

the

problems

that

radio

stations

are

now

facing

with

audiences

moving

away

from

AM

FM

to

streaming

and

how

those

platforms

are

not

getting,

I

guess,

the

details

that

they

need

to

give

advertisers

the

certainty

that

people

are

listening

to

the

radio

station.

So

adding

things

like

the

funding

tag,

adding

things

like

management

tools,

I

guess

it

gives

those

radio

stations

things

that

we

in

the

podcasting

2.0

community

have

already

been

using,

but

now

it's

coming

to

the

radio

stations

themselves.

Yeah,

no,

all

of

that

certainly

sounded

very

interesting.

There

are

new

figures

that

have

come

out

of

US

Radio

this

week

and

interestingly,

everything's

up.

Most

age

groups

are

up

16%

in

terms

of

time

spent

listening,

and

radio

listening

itself

in

terms

of

people

is

up

by

3%.

That's

amazing

news.

Do

you

know

how

they've

managed

to

end

up

doing

that,

Sam?

No,

no,

because

I

don't

know

how

they

get

the

reports

that

everything's

up

as

well,

but

there

you

go.

Well,

exactly.

So

what

they've

done

is

until

this

year,

a

radio

listener

used

to

be

somebody

who

would

listen

to

five

minutes

of

a

radio

station

or

more.

This

year

it's

three

minutes

to

a

radio

station

or

more.

So

surprise,

surprise,

everything

has

gone

up.

So,

yes,

it's

a

very

different

world.

And

I

think

listening

to

the

Podcasting

two

point

show

Last

week,

what's

very

clear

from

Adam

talking

excitedly

about

talking

at

a

conference,

is

that

everybody

was

super

thrilled

and

super

excited

about

everything

that

Adam

was

talking

about.

And

because

they

are

coming

at

this

from

a

completely

different

world

and

we

think

that

we

have,

you

know,

solved

this

and

this

is

old

news

and

everything

else,

but

my

goodness,

not

too

many

of

the

people

that

he

was

talking

to.

He's

brilliant

when

talking

at

a

conference.

I

wish

he

would

do

it

more,

but

super

good.

So,

yeah,

that

was.

That

was

really

interesting,

I

thought.

Yeah,

well,

I'm

looking

forward

to

the

time

when

that

report

then

says

30

seconds.

So

maybe

they'll

get

to

1

billion

listeners,

you

know,

that'll

be

the

way

to

do

it.

30

second

listens

on

radio.

We

have

1

billion

listeners.

We'll

talk

about

that

more

later.

But

the

one

thing

that

Adam

and

Dave

did

talk

about

is

the

lit

tag,

the

live

item

tag.

And

I

did

ask

them

about

whether

they

would

be

a

provider

of

services

such

as

HLS

or

shoutcast.

And

the

answer

was

very

clearly

no.

Which

means

that

the

onus

is

now

back

onto

podcasting

host

to

provide

that.

And

I'm

sad

to

say

that

I'm

not

seeing

any

traction

there.

RSS.com

were

very

keen

to

do

it

and

they

got

95%

of

the

way

with

all

of

the

fields

for

it,

but

not

the

last

bit,

which

is,

well,

the

server,

right?

Yes,

no,

exactly.

But

there

again,

the

server

needn't

necessarily

be

run

by

a

podcast

host.

It'd

be

easier

if

it

was,

I

think,

what

we

need

to

do,

and

I

certainly

learned

this

when

I

was

working

on

a

piece

of

technology

and

it

was

interesting.

Again,

listening

to

the

podcasting

2.0

show

last

week,

there

was

one

point

where

Adam

starts

talking

about

listening

to

a

radio

station

over

the

air

and

driving

away

from

the

transmitter.

And

he

was

saying,

you

know

cars

these

days,

if

the

signal

goes

too

bad,

it'll

say,

would

you

like

to

continue

listening

to

this

station

online?

And

Adam

was

very

excited

by

that.

You

know

what?

That

was

my

technology.

That

was

the

technology.

That

was

the

technology

that

I

was

a

co

founder

of

15,

20

or

so

years

ago.

So

wonderful

to

hear

Adam

talking

about

that

too.

Hooray.

Well

done,

you.

But

I

think

that

what

I

learned

with

that

technology

is

that's

actually

relatively

easy

and

straightforward

to

do.

It

needs

a

file

putting

on

your

web

server

and

it

needs

one

additional

entry

in

your

DNS.

And

it's

as

simple

as

that.

And

we

thought

a

man

called

Nick

and

I,

who

came

up

with

the

original

specification

with

help

from

many

others,

we

thought,

well,

that

is

so

easy.

Every

radio

station

will

be

able

to

do

it.

The

quick

answer

is

no.

I

mean,

even

talking

about

your

DNS

server

and

adding

a

text

field

to

your

DNS

server

or

adding

one

XML

document

to

your

website,

that

was

beyond

the

knowledge

of

a

lot

of

these

radio

broadcasters.

So

I

think

with

all

of

this,

it's

very

easy

to

come

up

with.

You

know,

here's

the

lit

tag

and

this

is

what

you

have

to

do.

And,

you

know,

I

mean,

even,

you

know,

getting

a

podcast

host

to

support

it,

but

at

the

end

of

the

day,

it's

still

hugely,

hugely

complicated

to

most

people

out

there.

And

so

it

needs

to

be

as

easy

as

possible.

And

the

American

way

is

to

just

hire

that

in.

And

so

if

you've

convinced

yourself

that

there's

a

business

in

there,

you

just

hire

somebody

in

to

come

and

fix

all

of

that

for

you.

You

never

even

lear

how

any

of

that

stuff

works.

I

happen

to

believe

that

that's

the

wrong

way

of

doing

it.

But

nevertheless,

that's

the

American

broadcast

radio

standard

way

of

doing

it.

I

think

it

needs

to

be

a

radio

live

service

in

a

box.

Right?

Yeah,

I

think

people

need

to

have

it

as

simple

as

that.

Now.

Well,

maybe

we

should

be

talking

to

the

likes

of

Radio

Co,

which

is

a

company

based

in

Sheffield,

which

also

hosts

podcasting.

Podcast

Co,

I

think.

So

either

we

need

to

talk

to

those

folks

or

of

course,

Live

365,

because

who

owns

Live

365?

Soundstack.

And

we

had

Rocky

Thomas

on

the

show

a

couple

of

weeks

ago.

So

if

there's

anyone

that

would

be

really

good

and

potentially

actually

to

test

some

of

this

stuff

out,

maybe

Rocky

is

the

right

person

here.

Yeah.

Now,

I

connected

her

with

Adam,

and

I'm

having

a

loop

back

with

Rocky

to

talk

about

some

other

stuff

to

do

with

live.

So

I'll

let

you

know

what

goes

on.

Talking

about

soundstack,

as

we

were,

congratulations

to

them.

They

have

achieved

version

2.2

of

the

IAB

podcast

measurement

guidelines

this

week.

Also

achieving

version

2.2

are

OmniStudio,

Triton,

Voxnest,

and

Spreaker.

So

that's

actually

pretty

good

news

because

that

means

that

pretty

well,

all

of

the

people

that

were

visibly

dragging

their

feet

have

now

achieved

the

recertification,

which

is

a

good

thing.

Moving

on.

Now,

James,

you

shared

a

story

with

me

for

a

company

called

Tune

fm.

Who,

or

what

is

Tune

fm?

Yes,

and

I

didn't

cover

this

in

the

POD

News

newsletter

because

it's

not

really

podcasting,

but

it's

Definitely

something

of

interest

to

this

podcast.

Which

is.

Well,

I

will

read

what

the

website

says.

When

the

music

gets

played,

the

artists

get

paid.

I

thought

that

was

lovely,

actually.

I

thought

it

was

really

well

put.

Yes.

This

sounds

similar,

though,

doesn't

it?

It

sounds

like

the

idea

behind

the

booster

grand

ball

and,

you

know,

and

streaming

payments

and

all

of

that

stuff.

So,

yes,

it

is

essentially

another

one,

another

solution

for

the

artists

because

you

earn

something

called

jam.

JAM

today,

JAM

tomorrow.

You

earn

jam

for

every

second

your

music

is

streamed.

I'm

assuming

that's

some

form

of,

you

know,

cryptocurrency

or

something.

Yeah,

Our

micropayment

technology

enables

instant

settlement

of

streaming

royalties.

Yes.

Earn

upwards

of

10

to

100

times

more

than

you

can

on

Spotify

or

Apple

Music.

Well,

yes,

because

that's

how

all

of

this

works.

And

then

they

start

spoiling

it

all

by

talking

about

NFTs.

Yeah.

You

know,

I

mean,

not

only

are

we

giving

you

things

called

jam,

but

we're

also

giving

you

things

called

NFTs,

so.

Yes,

but

our

cutting

edge

technology,

it

says

delivers.

Cutting

edge.

What,

you

mean

five

years

ago

with

the

podcasting

2.0

thing?

Anyway,

our

cutting

edge

technology

delivers

micropayments

at

the

rate

of

one

penny

per

minute

streamed.

You

know,

we

are

doing

significantly

more

than

that

with

streaming

payments.

So.

Yes.

So,

you

know,

Tune

fm,

it's

another

one

of

these

things

where

it's

frustrating

that

companies

like

this

don't

look

around

before

they

launch

a

product

because

they

could

be

earning

quite

handsomely

out

of

streaming

sats.

And,

you

know,

and

so

that's

a

little

bit

frustrating,

but

the

way

that

they

are

talking

about

it

is

quite

nice.

So.

Yeah.

So

it's

a

good

thing.

Yeah.

I

mean,

the

things.

As

I

said.

You

said

it

already.

When

the

music

gets

played,

the

art

gets

paid.

I

think

that's

so

succinct

and

I

liked

that

they

do

talk

about

tokens

and

not

sats.

They

do

talk

about

Web3

a

little

bit

too

much,

but

for

every

second

the

music's

played.

So

they're

talking

about

pay

as

you

go,

value

for

value.

I

couldn't

work

out.

This

is

the

critical

part.

Who

pays

the

1p

per

minute

of

stream

or

1cent?

Right.

Is

it

the

listener

who

has

then

a

wallet,

who

then

gets

given

tokens,

these

jam

tokens,

how

do

they

get

the

jam

tokens?

What's

the

mechanism

for

purchasing

them?

And

then

how

do

they

actually

give

them?

Because

if

it's

a

token,

then

it's

not

actually

a

physical

$0.01

or

1P

stream,

it's

a

Token

of

value.

Is

that

Token

now

worth

1p?

All

of

these

are

questions

that

I,

you

know,

if

I

could

interview

the

CEO,

Andrew

Antar,

I

would

be

asking,

because

I

don't

think

it's

very

clear

from

the

website

what

is

the

way

that

they

actually

enable

all

of

this.

They

talk

about

the

things

that

we

talk

about

in

podcasting

2.0,

but

they

actually

don't

talk

about

the

how.

And

that's

the

problem.

Yes,

indeed.

I

mean,

it

would

be

lovely

to

talk

with

them

now,

weirdly,

they.

They

sent

me

a

press

release.

I.

I

looked

at

it

and

I

thought,

well,

it's.

It's

not.

It'

pod

news

thing.

But

I

thought

that

you.

You

might

find

that

interesting

given,

you

know,

true

fans

and

everything

else.

And

so,

yes,

that

I've

reached

out

to

them.

That

makes

a

bunch

of

sense.

And

yes,

and

they

haven't

really.

They

haven't

really

said

anything,

have

they?

They

haven't

come

back

to

us

as

yet.

Now,

we're

recording

this

slightly

earlier

than

normal

this

week

for

reasons

you'll

find

out

in.

In

James

and

Sam's

week.

But,

yeah,

so

I

don't

know,

it

just

says

all

the

way

through

this,

artists

receive

instant

royalty

payments

for

every

second

their

music

is

streamed.

Well,

every

second

in

this

particular

deck

that

I'm

looking

at.

Not

every

minute,

but.

Yeah,

but

as

you

say,

it's

not

very

clear

where

that

money

is

actually

coming

from.

You

do,

though,

get

demographic

information

about

your

listeners,

which

is

interesting.

Also

built

in

to

the

app

is

direct

messaging.

Not

quite

sure

how

that

works.

And

I

do

notice

in

one

of

their

decks,

they

do

have

a

screenshot

of

the

app

and

it

says

wallet

on

the

top

of

the

screen.

So,

yeah,

so

there

is

a

wallet

going

on

there.

There

is

something

called

a

jam

price

and

a

rate

per

minute

and

all

this

kind

of

nonsense.

I

mean,

you

know,

again,

why

they

have

to

make

it

so

complicated?

It

was

complicated

enough

with

sats.

And.

Now

it's

all

about

jam.

Yes,

but,

you

know,

really

interesting.

And

I

wish

that

it

would

be

good

to

talk

to

these

people

and

learn

a

little

bit

more.

I

should

say

that

they

have

got

$20

million

in

funding,

so

they've

clearly

got

some

cash

there.

I

can

now

see

who's

paying.

Yes,

well,

yes,

exactly,

exactly.

So,

yeah,

and

they've,

you

know,

and

they've

got

some

nice

coverage

in

things

like

rolling

Stone

and

TechCrunch

and

Fast

Company,

so,

you

know,

who

knows?

But

anyway,

that's

certainly

one

to

look

at

because,

you

know,

I

mean,

why.

Why

shouldn't

they

be

talking

about

podcasting

as

well

in

there.

Now,

moving

on,

James,

there's

a

couple

of

stories

about

wondering

I've

been

wandering

about

and

I

thought

we'd

have

another

chat.

Yay.

Yes.

Amazon's

wandering

house

has

said

that

there

are

a

number

of

small

job

layoffs

in

the

company.

And

we

talked

last

week

about

how

they've

closed

operations

in

Brazil

and

Mexico.

Yes.

So

what's

going

on

with

onedri,

James?

Are

they

in

trouble?

I

don't

think

they

are

in

trouble.

I

think

that

they

are

doing

what

any

good

company

does

and

looking

every

so

often

at

the

cost

base

and

going,

oh,

we're

actually

making

money

out

of

that.

Right,

well,

let's

stop

doing

that

then.

And

I

mean,

they

have

cut

what

the

company

calls

a

small

number

of

jobs.

Someone

talking

to

Reuters

who

had

this

particular

story

said

that

the

number

of

affected

people

was

dozens

and

dozens.

Amazon

says

no,

no,

it

wasn't.

I

would

suspect

that

for

Amazon

it

is

a

small

number

of

jobs,

but

for

human

beings

it's

quite

a

large

number

of

jobs.

So

I

suspect

that's

how

that

works

because

Amazon

is

so

large.

I

mean,

I

think

it's

telling

that

both

content

and

advertising

teams

have

been

affected

as

well.

So,

yes,

not

quite

sure,

but

certainly

having

a

look

at

the

wider

picture,

there

have

been

quite

a

lot

of

rightsizing,

I

believe

might

be

the

phrase

there,

in

terms

of

how

Amazon's

staffing

actually

works.

The.

The.

The

new

boss

there,

who

is

called

Jassy.

Andy

Jassy,

the

CEO.

Yeah.

No,

yeah,

yeah,

I'm

sure,

I'm

sure

you,

you

know,

I'm

sure

he

stays

in

your

village.

Andy

has

apparently

already

slashed

tens

of

thousands

of

corporate

jobs

at

Amazon,

and

he's

reorganizing

business

units

in

order

to

reduce

the

ratio

of

managers

to

individual

contributors.

And

of

course,

you

know,

shares

closed

up.

So

I

don't

think

it's

anything

that

we

should

particularly

worry

about.

I

think

it's

really

more

just,

you

know,

keeping

an

eye

on.

It

was

an

interesting

Monday

because

I

was

covering

news

about

what

was

going

on

at

Amazon,

but

also

news

that

was

going

on

at

wnyc,

who've

lost

jobs.

I

think

Monk

Studios

in

Berlin

has

lost

a

managing

director,

and

it

basically

looks

as

if

that

company

is

all

but

closed

and

so

on

and

so

forth.

It

did

look

a

pretty

miserable

Monday.

So,

you

know,

hence

why,

you

know,

the

only

positive

story

ended

up

making

the

main

headline,

because

I

don't

really

like

negative

stories.

So,

yeah,

you

know,

I

thought

that

was

interesting,

but

I

don't

think

there's

Anything

to

worry

about.

I

think

they're

all

suffering

a

case

of

the

Elon's.

Let's

just

cut,

cut,

cut

and

see

what

happens

next.

Yes,

great.

They're

all,

they're

all

in

that

mode

where

they,

they

think,

you

know,

well,

look,

you

know,

I

talked

to

my

wife

who's

on

a

number

of

PLC

boards

and

they're

all

doing

the

same

thing,

right?

Not

in

the

digital

space.

And

they

all

think,

yes,

DEI

goal

closing.

Closing

job

cards

gone.

Yes,

exactly,

yes,

AI

will

replace

that

horrible

cost

of

humans

with,

with

automation.

Let's

all

go

that

way.

And

that's

all

you

ever

hear

them

talk

about

nowadays.

So

I

can

expect

it

that

as

well.

Now

look,

talking

of

Amazon

and

Amazon

Web

Services

and

Andy

Jassy,

who

used

to

work

there,

was

the

head

of

it

before

he

took

over

from

Mr.

Bezos.

You

asked

the

question,

is

hosting

a

podcast

on

Amazon

Web

Services

a

good

idea?

What

was

the

answer,

James?

Yes,

I

did.

Given

that

I've

been

doing

it

for

the

last

five

years

and

what

was

interesting

is

going

back

and

essentially

I

was

updating

a

post

which

I

had

made

way

back

in

2019

to

basically

go,

okay,

what

does

it

look

like?

Now

the

interesting

thing

about

Amazon

is

that

they

have

a

free

tier

and

they

have

recently

changed

the

free

tier,

which

is

why

I

updated

it,

because

somebody

asked

me.

And

their

free

tier

is

pretty

generous

now

in

terms

of

cloudfront,

so

serving

files,

it's

a

pretty

generous

free

tier.

And

it

does

mean

that

if

you

were

to

look

at

the

POD

News

Daily,

which

I

host

on

my

own

server,

then

normally,

let's

ignore

what's

currently

going

on,

but

normally

that

would

be

about

a

price

of

about

$42

a

month

to

host

the

POD

News

podcast,

which

then,

because

Amazon

has

a

big

free

tier,

essentially

means

that

it

would

be

free.

So

yay

in

terms

of

that.

Except

of

course,

the

POD

News

Daily

podcast

is

only

six

minutes

long

and

if

you

were

to

turn

that

into

a

one

hour

show,

then

it

would

cost

$513

to

serve.

So

the

quick

answer

is,

yes,

it's

good

for

us,

but

no,

it's

not

good

for

most

people.

But

it

was

interesting

doing

that.

This

is

why

podcast

hosts

exist.

That

actually,

if

you

are

a

proper

podcast

host,

you

have

a

much

better

deal

with

whether

it's

Amazon

or

whether

it's

someone

else.

And

so

therefore

you

can

actually

do

quite

nicely

in

terms

of

the

numbers

that

you

end

up

doing.

But

yes,

it

is

very

expensive

to

do

it

for

yourself.

There

are

cheaper

ways

of

doing

that,

but

they're

nowhere

near

as

effective.

And

of

course,

you

need

to

write

your

own

RSS

feeds.

You

need

to

do

all

of

that

kind

of

stuff

and

everything

else.

The

interesting

thing

though,

that

I

did

see

is

if

you

look

at

our

costs,

you

know,

our

monthly

costs,

then

$42

to

serve

our

audio,

but

also

$11

just

to

serve

our

RSS

feed.

We've

only

got

one

RSS

feed,

but

it's

costing

us

a

quarter

of

all

of

the

audio

just

to

serve

the

RSS

feed.

So

it

just

goes

to

show

that

the

conversations

that

we've

heard

in

the

past,

especially

from

our

sponsors,

Buzzsprout,

about

being

cautious

not

to

add

too

much

to

the

RSS

feed,

is

absolutely

well

founded.

If

you

can

see

that

25%

of

our

content

cost

is

actually

just

serving

the

RSS

fees.

Moving

on,

James.

And

right,

so

last

week

we

heard

the

wonderful

stat

from

YouTube,

a

1

billion

viewers

active

monthly

viewers.

And

we

thought,

wow,

that's

amazing.

Well

done,

YouTube.

Not

everyone's

quite

convinced

that

that's

true.

Or

maybe

they

might

think,

what's

behind

that

number.

So

John

McDermott,

friend

of

the

show,

wrote

a

substack

blog

post

about

YouTube's

claim

for

1

billion

monthly

active

viewers.

And

then

he

did

some

stats.

James,

what

did

he

do?

Yes,

so

he

pointed

out,

and

maybe

I

should

have

done

this

when

I

blindly

reported

the

YouTube

1

billion

monthly

active

viewers

of

podcast

content.

He

pointed

out

that

the

population

of

the

world

is

8

billion.

So

already

YouTube

podcasting

reaching

1

in

8

people.

He

also

points

out

the

fact

that

60%

of

podcasts

are

in

English,

which

would

tend

to

suggest,

I

mean,

certainly

not

everybody

in

the

world

speaks

English,

certainly

good

enough

to

enjoy

an

English

language

podcast.

And

actually

only

5.5

billion

have

Internet

access.

So

if

you

were

to

look

at

this,

you

could

go,

okay,

so

YouTube

podcasts,

realistically,

YouTube

podcasts

are

reaching

about

one

in

five

people

online.

One

in

five

people

online.

Is

that

creditable?

Is

that

a

believable

stat?

I

don't

know,

but

I

don't

know

what

a

believable

stat

is.

Spotify

claims

that

it

has

170

million

people

using

podcasts

on

a

monthly

basis.

Is

170

million

believable?

Probably.

What

would

be

believable

from

a

YouTube

point

of

view?

A

billion,

500

million,

250

million.

I

don't

know.

But

it

was

interesting

because

it

did

make

me

sort

of

stop

and

think,

are

YouTube

podcasts

really

reaching

one

in

eight

people

on

the

planet?

And

I

wasn't

necessarily

convinced

that

YouTube

podcasts

are,

to

be

fair.

Well,

I

would

add

that

there's

one

stat

missing

that

I

think

that

John

hasn't

looked

at,

which

is

an

individual

might

have

5,

6,

7,

8,

9,

10

actual

plays.

But

then

John

points

back

very

clearly

it's

active

viewers,

not

viewed.

So

then

my

whole

argument

is

then

broken

down.

So

that's

what

I

originally

thought.