It's

Friday

21st

March

2025.

The

last

word

in

podcasting

news.

This

is

the

Pod

News

Weekly

Review

with

James

Cridlin

and

Sam

Sethi.

I'm

James

Kridland,

the

editor

of

Pod

News.

And

I'm

Sam

Sethi,

the

CEO

of

Truth

Funds.

I

just

don't

agree

squarely

putting

the

blame

on

the

podcasting

2.0

team

having

just

huge

respect

for

folks

who

dedicate

their

time

to

this.

That's

Matt

Medeiros,

he's

on

later.

Also

in

the

chapters,

YouTube

TV

gets

podcasting

the

infinite

style

2025

I

spill

all

the

tea

and

lots

of

Spotify

news.

This

podcast

is

sponsored

by

buzzsprout

with

the

tool,

support

and

community.

To

ensure

you

keep

podcasting,

start

podcasting.

Keep

podcasting

with

buzzsprout.com

from

your

daily.

Newsletter,

the

Pod

News

Weekly

Review.

This

is

gonna

be

a

long

one.

Remember,

we

do

do

chapters,

so

if

you

haven't

got

chapters

in

your

app,

change

to

a

modern

new

podcast

app.

So

YouTube

TV,

it's

basically

adding

a

dedicated

podcast

tab

to

its

main

screen.

James?

Yes.

So

TV

is

now

the

premium

device

for

YouTube

viewing

in

the

US.

So

TV

is

a

big

deal

and

a

big

deal

for

us

in

podcasting

is

that

they

have

added

or

they

are

rolling

out

a

new

tab

on

the

front

page

of

YouTube

TV,

which

is

called

Podcasts.

So

that

has

existed,

but

it's

existed

under

a

more

icon

and

they've

moved

us

away

from

the

more

icon

and

into

the

front

page.

So

that's

good.

I

mean,

less

good

is

the

fact

that

the

podcasts

actually

listed

in

there

aren't

necessarily

podcasts.

There

seems

to

be

some

automation

that

goes

on

there

to

put

all

kinds

of

things

in

there.

But

nevertheless,

really

good

to

see

podcasts

on

the

front

page

of

YouTube

TV.

So

that's

good.

Do

you

watch

YouTube

on

your.

On

your

smart

TV

in

your

mansion?

I

don't,

but

I

did

this

weekend

to

test

it

and

actually

it

wasn't

about

experience.

They

actually

size

the

image.

It's

not

grainy.

It

is

immediately

loaded.

Yeah,

I

mean,

I

can

see

why

if

you

are

getting

into

a

habit

of

doing

that,

why

or

how

you

would

do

it.

Yeah,

I

think

a

lot

of

people

are

putting

it

on

in

the

background.

Again,

the

long

form

podcasts

leave

them

on.

I'm

not

a

subscriber

to

YouTube

Music,

so

that

wouldn't

be

how

I'd

listen

to

music

through

my

tv.

But

again,

yeah,

I

can

see

the

experience

working.

Yeah,

I

have

to

say

as

a

subscriber

to

YouTube

Music,

when

you.

Because

of

course

you

can

control

all

of

this

through

your

mobile

phone

if

you

want

to,

and

just

tell

the

TV

to

show

YouTube

and

it

will

show

whatever

it

is

that

you're

doing

on

your

phone,

which

is

great.

And

it

is

the

best

way

by

far

to

consume

music.

Spotify

is

okay

and

it's

got,

you

know,

it's

got

some

playback

stuff

and

all

of

that.

YouTube,

of

course,

it'll

play

you

the

video

if

it's

got

the

music

video,

so

automatically

you

don't

have

to

press

any

magic

buttons.

And

so

it

works

fantastically

in

that

way.

But

yes,

no,

it's

a,

it's

a

good

thing.

YouTube,

clearly,

as

we've

heard

from

the

infinite

dial,

doing

really

well.

And

so

from

that

point

of

view,

yeah,

you

know,

more,

more

YouTube

podcasts

in

inverted

commas.

So

hooray.

Does

this

generate

the

need

to

have

more

video

with

podcasts?

I

mean,

I

don't

want

to

do

video,

but

you

know,

we

are

seeing

a

trend

towards

it.

Does

the

fact

that

the

generic

word

podcasts

now

appear

on

the

home

screen

mean

that

actually

there

is

more

benefit

in

having

a

video

with

your

podcast

because

people

can

then

watch

you

on

the

big

screen?

Yeah,

you

could

argue

that

that's

the

case.

And

certainly,

I

mean,

it

seems

that

podcasts

that

are

in

system

but

that

are

just

a

graphic

don't

seem

to

do

very

well.

And

you

can

actually

have

a

look

at

this

pretty

clearly

if

you

have

a

look

at

the

Edison

podcast

metrics

list

and

you

go

through

that

top

10

list

and

you

have

a

look

at

YouTube

for

those

shows

which

are

in

video

and

they

do

fantastically

well

on

YouTube,

as

you

would

expect.

And

then

you

have

a

look

at

things

like.

Well,

normally

I

would

give

the

example

of

the

Daily

from

the

New

York

Times.

They've

actually

started

doing

a

little

bit

of

video

now,

but

you

can

very

clearly

see

that

those

don't

do

very

well,

nor

do

some

of

the

things

from

npr.

So,

yeah,

I

think

there's

definitely

something

to

be

said

for

doing

podcasts

in

video.

If

you

think

that

that's

a

podcast

and

if

that

suits

you,

there

are

plenty

of

podcasts

who

are

perfectly

happy

not

to

including

anything

I

do.

There

may

be,

you

know,

super

comments

or

boost

asking

James.

You

never

know.

Well,

if,

if

there

are,

then

boost,

boost,

make

it

a

big

boost

and.

We'Ll,

we'll

consider

and

still

say

no.

Right.

Anyway,

now,

friend

of

the

show

Justin

Jackson

from

Transistor

has

put

a

report

out

about

video

or

audio

podcasts.

What's

the

report?

He

has?

Yes,

this

Is

the

transistor

Gen

Z

report,

or

as

we

are

both

British

Gen

Z

report.

And

those

are

people

aged

13

to

28.

And

according

to

that

video

is

Skibidi

toilet

and

audio

is

sleigh.

They

apparently

look

at

you.

Down

with

the

kids.

Anybody

would

think

I've

got

a

12

year

old.

They

overwhelmingly

prefer

audio

podcasts,

apparently,

according

to

that

new

survey.

Now,

it

was

a

survey

with

not

very

many

people

taking

part

in

it.

So

take

some

of

what

it

says

with

a

grain

of

salt.

Although

it

was

quite

similar

to

some

of

the

other

studies

that

I've

seen

over

the

past

year

looking

at

Gen

Z.

So

I

think

that

that's

interesting.

But

yes,

76%

primarily

listen

to

audio

podcasts,

18%,

it

says

here,

consume

a

mix

of

audio

and

video.

And

just

6%

primarily

watching

video

podcasts

just

for

Gen

Z.

That's

interesting

because

that

kind

of

goes

against

what

you

would

think.

But

certainly

Justin

has

had

a

tremendous

week

in

the

news.

I

think

all

of

a

sudden

an

Indian

newspaper

picked

up

on

that

and

every

other

Indian

newspaper

has

followed

and

printed

something

about

that

particular

study.

So

must

be

patting

himself

on

the

back

for

the

money

that

he

spent

trying

to

get

a

bunch

of

Gen

Z

people

to

take

part

in

that

survey.

I

should

say

it's

Gen

Z

podcast

fans.

And

I

was

very

careful

to

say

that

it's

not

Gen

Z

as

a

whole,

it's

Gen

Z

podcast

fans.

The

first

question

to

get

into

the

survey

was

are

you

a

fan

of

podcasts?

So

just

bear

that

in

mind.

But

super

useful

data.

So

I

look

forward

to

the

launch

of

Transistor

in

India.

That'll

be

great.

But

he

also

went

on

to

talk

about

what

device

as

well,

and

it

wasn't

YouTube.

Yes,

he

says

Spotify

is

the

most

used

podcast

app

for

Gen

Z.

YouTube

at

21%,

Spotify

at

56%,

Apple

Podcasts

just

at

10%.

Now

I

could

agree

with

all

of

that.

I

think

that

makes

sense

if

you

have

a

look

at

Apple

podcasts

for

example,

then

typically

kids

these

days

don't

have

iPhones

because

they're

still

quite

expensive.

And

so

therefore

most

of

the

kids

have

Android

Android

on

there.

And

of

course

Apple

podcast

isn't

available

properly,

at

least

on

Android.

And

certainly

if

I

can

use

my

list

of

one,

my

12

year

old

informs

me

that

all

of

her

school

friends

have

Spotify

apart

from

her.

She

has

YouTube

music.

So

she's

the

outlier.

James,

she's

got

to

get

her

on

it.

She

is

the

outlier.

I'm

not

giving

her

Spotify.

We're

already

paying

for

YouTube

Premium

because

it

gives

you

no

ads

in

YouTube

as

well.

So,

yes,

I

think

that

that's

good

thing.

Well,

now,

one

of

the

other

things

that

Justin

has

been

doing

is

building

a

new

podcast

website

gallery.

What's

he

been

up

to?

He's

a

busy

boy,

isn't

he,

over

there?

Yeah,

he

is

a

busy

boy.

All

of

a

sudden

he,

he

seems.

I

mean,

maybe

it's

because

ski

season

isn't

on

right

now.

Maybe

that's

the

thing.

He

hasn't

got

to

build

the

Canadian

Wall

yet.

So

he's

okay.

Yes.

Elbows

out.

Yes.

No.

So

from

that

point

of

view,

yes,

he's

produced

a

podcast

website,

which

the

company

says

is

an

archive

of

awesome

and

interesting

podcast

website

designs

for

your

inspiration.

Interestingly,

some

of

those

are

transistor

shows,

but

not

all

of

them.

So

I

think

that

they

are

still

worthwhile.

Taking

a

look

at

the

feedback

I've

given

Justin

is,

this

is

brilliant,

but

you

should

give

reasons

why

they

are

good,

because

I

think

that

that

is

a

useful

thing.

But,

yes,

if

you

want

some

inspiration

in

terms

of

what

a

good

podcast

website

might

look

like,

then

pop

along

there

and

take

a

peek.

Yeah.

Justin

kindly

said

it

was

because

of

what

we'd

been

talking

about,

how

a

meta

page

of

websites

provided

by

the

hosts

themselves

would

make

a

lot

of

sense

as

a

landing

page.

Now,

James,

yesterday

you

were

a

very

busy

boy.

The

reason

you

were

a

very

busy

boy,

you

were

co

hosting

the

infinite

dial

2025.

So

the

infinite

Dial

itself,

please

tell

me

what

it

is

and

then

tell

me

what

they

said.

Yes,

so

the

Infinite

Dial,

a

study

that

Edison

Research

have

run

in

the

US

and

in

other

countries

in

the

US

it

is

a

really,

really

old

piece

of

research.

It

has

existed

for

a

long,

long,

long

time.

And

that

means

that

in

terms

of

trends,

that's

super

useful.

So

one

of

the

first

slides

that

we

showed

in

the

Infinite

Dial,

for

example,

was

smartphone

ownership.

And

it

starts

in

2009,

which

was

the

first

year

that

the

Infinite,

the

question

about

smartphone

ownership.

And

only

10%

of

Americans

have

smartphones

back

in

2009.

Now,

of

course,

the

figure

is

pretty

static

at

91%,

which

I'm

surprised

that

it

isn't

higher,

to

be

honest,

but

91%

is

pretty

good.

There's

a

mass

market

medium.

So

the

Infinite

Dial

has

been

going

for

a

long,

long

time.

And

one

of

the

questions

that

it

started

asking,

of

course,

a

long,

long

time

ago,

was

about

PODC.

In

fact,

they

started

asking

this

question

in

2006.

Did

you

know

what

a

podcast

was?

And

do

you

listen

to

a

podcast.

So

in

2006,

22%

of

the

US

population

did

know

what

a

podcast

was.

That

figure

is

now

85%.

But

also

ever

listened

to

a

podcast?

Well,

in

2006,

ever

listened

was

11%

of

all

U.S.

adults.

That

figure,

as

you

would

have

heard

if

you

were

taking

part

in

the

webinar

on

Thursday

afternoon,

that

figure

is

now

70%

of

the

US

population

listening

to

a

podcast.

So

that

is

brilliant.

But

as

you

will

also

have

heard,

the

phrase

listened

to

is

not

that

handy,

given

that,

of

course,

we're

now

talking

about

video.

And

so

the

first

question

that

they

have

added

this

year

was,

have

you

listened

to

a

podcast,

but

also

have

you

watched

a

podcast?

And

actually,

when

you

add

people

watching

a

podcast,

then

that

figure

goes

up

even

higher,

another

3%,

which

is

more

millions

of

people.

So

73%

of

people

have

consumed

a

podcast.

So

that's

pretty

good.

In

terms

of

podcast

consumption,

the

big

number,

as

you

might

remember

from

yesterday,

was

how

many

people

are

now

monthly

consumers

of

podcasts.

And

that

number

has

broken

50%

for

the

first

time.

And

I

reckon

that

must

mean

that

podcasting

is

mainstream.

Do

you

reckon

that

50%,

if

50%

of

people

are

doing

it,

it's

now,

it's

now

a

mainstream

thing?

No,

it

has

to

be

52%.

Clearly

every

election

is,

you

know,

when

we

have,

oh,

here

we

go.

So

52%

is

mainstream.

I'm

sorry,

you're

not

quite

there

yet.

Well,

it

was

55%,

so

that

was

good.

So

podcast

listening,

listening

and

watching

went

up

a

little

bit

from

47%

to

48%.

But

if

you

added

those

people

that

were

just

watching

podcasts

but

not

listening,

then

you

got

to

55%,

which

is

158

million

people.

I

think

that's

mainstream.

So

hurrah.

As

I

said,

go

podcasting.

I'm

sure

that

Adam

found

that

absolutely

hilarious.

No,

it

was

a

really

good

fun

to,

to

take

part

in

the

middle

of

the

night

here.

So,

yes,

all

good

news,

I

think.

So

overall,

where

do

you

give

a

scorecard

to

what's

going

on?

What

does

the

infinite

dial,

I

suppose,

give

a

scorecard

to

what's

going

on?

Yeah,

so

I

mean,

overall,

the,

the

takeaways

were

the

podcast

consumption

is

at

an

all

time

high,

as

you

would

expect.

Of

course,

audio

consumption

continues

to

grow,

but

podcasts

using

video

are

attracting

more

podcast

consumers

to

the

medium.

Online

audio

adoption

is

at

an

all

time

high.

That

includes

things

like

Spotify,

but

also

things

like

streaming

radio

and

that

sort

of.

And

then

the

stuff

around

social

media,

the

Social

media

stuff

was.

Yeah,

Mastodon

did

not

do

very

well.

1,

1%.

1%

of

people

in

the

US

use

Mastodon.

I

mean,

that's

still

a

lot

of

people,

but

it's

not

very

high.

So,

yes.

Now

friend

of

the

show

Rocky

Thomas,

who

is

at

soundstech,

they've

been

working

with

Edison

as

well.

What

have

they

been

doing?

They

have

been.

They

have

launched

a.

In

fact,

Edison

has

had

a

really

busy.

Because

they've

launched

a

download

metrics

service.

So

they

already

produced

this

Edison

Podcast

Metrics

survey,

which

is

a

really

useful

survey,

but

that's

not

as

useful

as

it

could

be,

perhaps

for

smaller

and

short

run

shows.

So

what

they've

done

is

they've

produced

a

download

metrics

service

using

SoundStack,

the

Solutions

IB

version

2.2

compliant.

And

it

just

adds

the

numbers

in.

What

Edison

Podcast

Metrics

could

say

is

you're

about

as

big

as,

you

know,

Joe

Rogan

or

you're

about

as

big

as

Smartless.

But

what

Edison

Podcast

Metrics

by

themselves

couldn't

say

is

how

many

downloads

you've

got.

The

more

people,

of

course,

that

tie

in

with

this

download

metrics

service,

you

can

actually

see

that

data

in

there.

So,

yes,

so

they've

been

busy

in

terms

of

that

and

also

launching

their

fandom

stuff

as

well.

There's

been

a

whole

bunch

of

information

about

fandom

which

they're

going

to

be

talking

about

at

Evolutions

in

couple

of

weeks

time.

And

so,

gosh,

it's

been

a

busy,

busy

week

for

Edison

Research.

That

word

is

becoming

more

and

more

common.

I

find

it

really

grating.

I

use

it

within

True

Fan,

so

don't

get

me

wrong.

Yeah,

sorry,

what's

the

name

of

your

product?

Yeah,

yeah,

I

know,

I

know.

And

I,

and

I

don't

know

why

I.

The

word

fandom

just

sits

badly

with

me

in

my

head

head.

I

just

can't

equate

it

to

what

it's

supposed

to

be.

I

don't

know,

I

just

want

to

say.

Well,

well,

you'll

find

the

data

which

is

released

sort

of

fully

at

Evolutions,

but

the

report

is

called

the

Fandom

Phenomenon.

And

one

of

the

chief

findings

is

that

emotional

connection

bonds

hosts

and

podcast

fans,

with

71%

of

fans

reporting

that

they

feel

like

they're

friends

with

the

hosts

of

their

favorite

podcasts.

Ah,

isn't

it

that

nice?

Well,

Alberto

calls

it

parasocial

and

many

other

people

are

beginning

to

call

that

as

well,

the

ability

to,

to

bond

with

your

host

because

you

feel

like

you

know

them

better,

whereas

the

host

doesn't

really

know

the

fan

very

well.

Ah,

well,

yes,

no

interesting

stuff.

So

more

information

there

from

Edison

Research

at

Evolutions.

It

was

a

piece

of

work

that

they

did

with

Wondery

and

with

Dentsu,

the

big

advertising

company.

There

is

a

quote

in

that

release

from

somebody

with

the

excellent

name

of

Jennifer

Hungerbuller.

Hungerbuller.

Yes.

Hunger.

Bulla.

Hunger

Bulla.

So,

yes,

there

you

go.

So

watch

out

for

that

at

Evolutions

in

Chicago

if

you're

going.

Moving

on.

A

few

weeks

ago,

we

talked

about

a

new

VP

role

that

was

available

at

Spotify,

VP

of

AI.

This

week,

James,

they've

announced

an

update

to

their

dj,

their

audio

dj,

which

was

a

basic

function

before,

but

now

you'll

be

able

to

press

a

button

on

your

Spotify.

Well,

you

won't

because

you

don't

have

Spotify

Pro,

but

other.

Other

people

at

school

will

be

able

to

press

their

button.

It's.

You've

got

the

ability

to

now

talk

to

DJX

English

only

and

that

you'll

be

able

to

ask

for

the

tracks

or

ask

for

a

genre.

So

it's

an

interface,

an

AI

interface,

an

agentic

interface,

which

is

the

term

that

everyone's

beginning

to

talk

about.

Agentix.

Gosh,

this

is

the

new

Web

4.0

terminology.

But

I

think

it's

very

cool.

I've

been

playing

with

it

and

it

is

very

useful

actually

to

be

able

to

say,

oh,

yeah,

play

me

some

David

Bowie,

play

me

some

Paul

Weller,

whatever.

And

then

you

get.

Or

it'll

just

go

back

to

your

playlist

and

start

playing

stuff.

And

it's

actually

great

for

serendipity,

being

able

to

go,

oh,

yeah,

God,

I

haven't

heard

the

Counting

Crows

in

ages.

Or

I

haven't

heard

X

track

like

Vertical

Horizon.

And

you

go,

wow,

thank

you.

You

know,

and.

And

it

is

a

great

way.

But

I

think

music's

different

to

podcasting

because

I

love

listening

to

old

music

or

new

music

and,

you

know,

you

can

get

a

feeling

or

an

emotion

to

it.

I

don't

think

listening

back

to

this

podcast

back

in

2023,

an

episode

is

going

to

be

a.

An

emotional.

And

I

agree.

I

think

definitely

music

evokes

emotion

of

time

and

place.

So,

yeah,

absolutely.

Although

I

have

to

say

I

did

feel

incredibly

nostalgic

when

I

went

back

and

listened

to

a

couple

of

CNET

Buzz

Out

Loud

shows,

which

was

a

podcast

that

I

was

listening

to

in

2004,

2005,

it's

Friday,

March

14,

2008.

Happy

PI

Day.

Um,

and

I

went

back

to

listen

to

some

of

those

and

I

thought,

wow,

this

is.

This

is

something

else.

Um,

but

yes,

it's

an

interesting

plan.

Uh,

I

have

met

DJ

X.

He's

a

real

person

and

he's.

And

he's

very

nice.

So

there

you

go.

Yeah,

Spotify

said

they

are

going

to

let

you

know

that

you're

talking

to

an

AI,

but

they

will

be

storing

and

analyzing

your

voice

requests,

uh,

to

make

improvements,

they

say.

Now

this

is

similar

to

March

28th.

You've.

You

don't

have

Alexis

in

your

house,

do

you?

You

have

Google.

Yes,

yes,

but

Alexa

is

going

to

do

the

same

thing,

isn't?

Yes.

Yeah,

they're

going

to

now

stop

local

processing.

It's

all

going

to

go

back

up

into

the

cloud.

So

yeah,

just

be

aware

your

voice

will

be

traveling.

Now,

the

reason

I

mentioned

this

was

because

I

did

think

there

will

be

at

some

point

an

element

where

the

agentic

AI

interface

is

used

for

podcasting.

I'm,

as

I

said

last

week,

and

I

won't

be

talking

much

more

about

it,

looking

at

it

for

true

fans,

but

I'll

leave

that

there.

We

do

have

enough

data.

Well,

yeah,

this

is

going

to

link

into

something

that

Tom

Webster

was

talking

about,

which

we'll

talk

about

in

a

minute,

but

so

you

might

say,

hey,

whatever,

djx,

it

wouldn't

be

called

up,

but

hey,

Mayo,

or

whatever

it

would

be

called,

play

me

my,

you

know,

latest

podcast

or

it

might

tell

you

there's

3

comments

waiting

for

you

or

there's

a

new

event

that

you

might

be

interested

in

or

whatever.

I

think

we

are,

are

moving

to

that.

It's

too

early

yet,

but

I

think

it's

worth

looking

at

as

a

UI

and

an

interface

to

the

way

that

we

get

information.

Yeah,

exactly.

And

I

think,

you

know,

we,

we

should

come

back

to

user

interface

and

that

sort

of

thing

when

we

start

talking

about

what

Tom,

Tom

Webster

ended

up

saying.

Spotify

also

launched

a

new

publishing

program

for

independent

authors

as

well,

allowing

independent

authors

to

submit

short

form

stories

for

audio

creation.

That

was

another

thing

from

the

Infam

dial,

which

I

found

really

interesting.

So

if

you've

not

yet

seen

the

infinite

dial,

let

me

tee

this

up

for

you.

If

you

remember,

right,

at

the

end

of

November

2023,

Spotify

ended

up

giving

everyone

with

Spotify

Premium

a

free

audiobook.

If

you

kind

of

remember,

I

think

they

give

you,

what,

10

hours,

don't

they?

Something

like

that.

15

hours

worth

free.

So

that's

essentially

a

free

book

every

single

month.

So

every

single

Spotify

Premium

user

has

a

free.

Amazon

now

does

the

same

thing.

So

if

you

are

a

subscriber

to

Amazon

Music,

all

three

of

you,

then

you

too

can

get

a

free

book

from

Audible

every

single

month

as

well.

So

I

was

really

interested

in

seeing

from

the

infinite

dial

that

audiobook

listening

in

the

last

year

has

gone

down,

gone

down

2%

from

38

to

36%.

Why

is

that?

I

am

actually

not

surprised.

I

am

not

surprised.

Well,

I,

I,

I've

been

a

member

of

Audible

for,

I

don't

know,

decades,

it

feels

like,

but

at

least

a

decade,

let's

say.

And

through

my

Amazon

prime

account,

I

buy

credit.

And

I

love

listening

to

books.

You,

we,

we've

talked

about

this

on

this

show

here.

Indeed,

yes.

Because

you

can't

read.

You're

like

Donald

Trump.

Yes,

like

Donald.

Big

words

can't

help.

But

the,

but

the

thing

about

it,

what's

interesting

is

my

attention

has

been

drifted

more

to

listen

to

podcasts

than

it

has

to

audiobooks

now,

because

I

actually

find

most

audiobooks

and

nearly

all

books.

Right.

You

could

summarize

the

book

down

to

probably

10

minutes,

minutes,

and

get

everything

you

needed

to

know

in

that

book.

But

because

you

need

to

sell

300

pages,

you

waffle

and

bloat

it

out.

Oh,

yes.

And

I

think

audiobooks

are

just

bloated

podcasts,

right?

So

there

are

audiobook

summaries,

but

I,

I

still

listen

to

them

at

the

weekend

because

that's

the

only

time

I

can

get

time

to

actually

concentrate

and

have

a

book

because

it

takes

so

long

to

read

or

listen

to,

to.

Whereas

I

think

my

time

available

now

has

gone

down

for

listening

to

audiobooks

because

I

listen

to

more

podcasts.

And

I

completely

agree

that

a

lot

of

the

books

that

I

read

are

basically

filled

with

stuff.

Would

you,

would

you

like

to

hear

my

review

of

Seth

Godin's

Poke

the

box

book

from

April

2011?

Yes,

please.

This

is

my

review.

I've

worked

out

what

Seth

Godin

does,

and

it's

very

simple.

He

takes

one

valid

and

interesting

thought

and

writes

it

in

lots

of

different

ways

to

fill

a

book.

What

Seth

has

done

in

this

book,

I

discover,

is

that

he's

had

one

idea

and

expanded

on

it

repeatedly

to

make

a

book

out

of

it.

Seth's

a

clever

man

because

essentially

this

book

is

full

of

one

concept,

which

he's

phrased

and

paraphrased

over

and

over

again

to

comfortably

fill

quite

a

lot

of

pages.

What's

kind

of

happened

here,

you'll

discover,

is

that

Mr.

Godin

has

suddenly

woken

up

and

thought,

goodness,

if

I

just

write

the

same

thing

over

and

over

again,

but

suddenly

slightly

differently

for

a

number

of

different

chapters,

then

I'll

manage

to

complete

a

book,

and

then

I

can

Sell

it

as

a

concept

of

a

book.

This

is

pretty

clever.

Seth

Godin

has

come

up

with

one

central

talent

and

discussed

it

in

quite

a

circumlutary

way

over

a

considerable

amount

of

paragraphs.

Etc.

Yes,

yes,

that

is,

that

is,

that

is,

that

is

exactly

it.

Yes,

yes.

Anyway,

and

so

I

can,

so

I

can

see

why

audiobook

consumption

is

dropping

because

people,

people

really

don't

want

to

have

bloated,

long

winded

books

when

they

can

get

that

summarized.

Correct.

Yes,

correct,

Absolutely.

Now

here's

something

from

Spotify

again.

Sorry,

we

should

have

had

that

jingle

in

that.

Oh

yeah.

Should

we

play

it

now?

We're

sorry.

But

now

it's

time

for

more

news

about

Spotify

on

the

POD

News

Weekly

review.

Oh

good.

Oh,

that's

better.

Oh,

that's

better.

Yes,

yes.

The

Spotify

warnings.

Now

they're

coming

up

with

something

called

Spotify

Mashups

and

then

they

are

going

to

really,

really,

really

annoy

music

artists

further.

I

mean,

not

that

they're

doing

it

already,

but

they're

going

to

try

and

do

more

of

it.

So

what

you

get

is

with

the

upcoming

Music

Pro,

which

is

a

new

premium

subscription.

Oh

yeah,

this

is

Spotify.

Hi

fi

it.

Yes.

I'm

just

about

to

say

finally,

what

they're

sneaking

in

under

the

the

door

is

the

ability,

allegedly

because

we

haven't

seen

it

yet,

of

you

being

able

to

take

multiple

tracks

and

smash

them

together

and

create

a

new

one

using

AI.

Yeah.

Now

that

in

itself

is

not

new.

There

are

many

apps

you

can

get

off

various

app

stores

that

will

do

that

for

you.

TikTok

does

a

lot

of

it.

But

the

question

here

is

who

owns

the

rights

to

a

Spotify

mashup?

Who's

going

to

get

paid

for

it?

When

you

take

two

original

songs,

what

will

the

artists

think?

Do

the

artists

have

to

opt

in

or

opt

out?

And

it

often

lacks

any

sort

of

resources

for

independent

artists

to

stop

this.

I

think

it's

like

David

and

Goliath

and,

you

know,

poor

little

independent

David.

Independent

music

artists

are

not

going

to

be

able

to

stop

the

Goliath

of

spotting

from

doing

this.

What

do

you

think,

James?

Yeah,

it's

really

interesting,

isn't

it?

I

mean

somebody

who

would

have

an

opinion

would

be.

Would

be

a

friend

of

the

show,

Will

Page,

who

doubtless

would

jump

in

and

give

all

kinds

of

erudite

opinion

in

a

Scottish

accent.

But

from

my

point

of

view,

yeah,

I

mean

that,

that

sounds

really

interesting.

Do.

Does

that

mean

that

people

will

earn

less

money?

Does

that

actually

mean

that

people

will

earn

more

money?

Because

it

counts

as

A

play

for

both

of

the

songs.

I

don't

know,

got

all

of

that.

I

mean,

I

remember

that

there

was

a

radio

station

that

started

broadcasting

about

15

years

or

so

ago

and

its

idea

was

that

it

will

play

twice

the

amount

of

songs

as

every

other

radio

stations.

And

the

way

that

it

would

do

that

is

it

would

edit

the

songs

down.

And

so

instead

of

a

song

having

three

verses

and

a

chorus,

the

song

would

have

one

verse

and

a

chorus.

You

know,

a

song

would

be

much,

much

shorter.

So

you

could

essentially

get

24,

25

songs

an

hour

instead

of

about

12

or.

And

as

a

programming

tool,

that

was

amazing

because

it

meant

that

you

would

hear

much

more

of

your

favourite

songs.

But

the

artists

absolutely

hated

it.

And

there

was

a

big,

big

kickback

by

the

Canadian

artists

who

basically

said,

no,

you

are

absolutely

not

allowed

to

do

that

with

any

of

my

songs.

Not

knowing,

of

course,

that

broadcast

radio

edits

songs.

Anyway,

I

think

the

worry

I

have

here,

and

look,

this

is

all

music

related,

but

let

me

bring

it

back

to

podcasting

a

minute.

And

I

think

it's

something

that's

happening

to

you,

James,

as

well.

So

what

if

I

wanted

to

take

a

snippet

of

this

show,

a

snippet

of

another

show,

a

snippet

of

a

third

show,

smash

it

all

together,

use

an

AI

voice

and

then

put

it

out

as

an

RSS

feed?

Where's

the

law

going

to

stand

there?

Well,

yes,

exactly.

And

I

mean,

it's

not

just

something

that

might

happen

in

the

future,

it's

something

that

is

happening

right

now.

Don't

know

if

you

heard

Satya

Nadella,

the

big

boss

of

Microsoft.

He

ended

up

saying

this

in

a

podcast

just

last

week.

The

best

way

for

me

to

consume

podcasts

is

not

to

actually

go

listen

to

it,

but

to

have

a

conversation

with

the

transcript

on

my

commute

using

my

copilot.

It

is

more

convenient

because

of

the.

Modality,

the

fact

that

I

can

speak

to

it,

I

can

interact.

Interrupted.

And

if

I

can

interrupt

him

then,

then

I

mean

that

is.

Is

that

not

a

kind

of

stealing?

I

mean,

you

know,

if

you're

just

having

a

conversation

with

a

transcript

of

a,

of

a

podcast,

you've.

You've

stripped

all

the

ads

out,

you've

stripped

all

of

the

value

for

value

call

outs

from

it.

You

know,

is

it

basically.

Is

it

basically

helping

yourself

to

the

food

but

leaving

the

jar

in

the

supermarket?

Possibly,

but

I

think

we

just

talked

about

audiobooks

being

bloaty,

we

talked

about

people

being

time

efficient,

we

talked

about

Spotify's

agentic

AI

interface.

Well,

what

he's

doing

is

using

Copilot,

which

is

Microsoft's

agentic

interface,

fundamentally

to

have

a

conversation.

Is

it

more

efficient?

Possibly.

Is

it

actually

better

for

you

than

hearing

the

actual

people

speak?

I

know

a

number

of

people

who

I

talk

to

who

listen

to

this

show

and

the

first

thing

they

do

is

do

a

name

search

in

our

transcript.

They

do,

Right.

That's

funny.

Yes.

I

won't

reveal

who,

but

there

are

a

number

of

people

who

tell

me,

I

check

that

I've

been

name

checked

and

then,

then

they'll

listen

to

the

episode

possibly.

And

so

there

is

a

lot

of

that

and

I

think

with

transcripts

and

we're

going

to

be

talking

about

Apple

shortly.

There

is

to

be

more

and

more

pushed

to

say,

actually,

how

do

I

get

a

short

form?

How

do

I

get

a

summary?

Or

as

I

said

earlier,

you

know,

we're

looking

at

Sesame

as

an

example

where,

you

know,

you

can

have

a

conversational

AI

and

you

could

say,

hey,

any

mention

to

me

across

the,

you

know.

Oh,

yeah,

no,

that

there

was

a

mention

of

me

in

that

pod.

I

never

heard

of

that

podcast.

Can

you

play

that

snippet?

Not

the

whole

podcast

cast.

Yeah,

well,

yes,

I'm

sure

that

there

are

people

doing

that.

And

let

me

say

hello.

Sharon

Taylor,

Ross

Adams,

Lizzie

Pollard,

who

else

can

we

name

check?

Just

randomly.

And

by

the

way,

I

was

listening

to

Adam

Curry

over

the

weekend

and

he

was

talking

about

listening

to

Power,

as

he

calls

this

show.

And

I

think

he's

mentioned

in

the

past

and

he's

very

pleased

that

we

have

chapters

because

I

think

he

skips

through

some

things.

Yes.

So

what

we

should

do

is

we

should

put

a

chapter

point

in

here

and

then

say

something

like,

anyway,

I

don't

think

Adam

Curry

will

do

that.

So

what

else

do

we

have

in

terms

of

Spotify?

Deplatforming

is

a

thing.

Yeah.

I

mean,

there

are

two

schools

of

thought,

aren't

there?

One

is,

is

the,

you

know,

you

shouldn't

be

deplatforming.

It's

freedom

of

speech

and

people

should

be

allowed

to

say

what

they

want.

And

then

there's

the

other

form

where

Spotify

this

week

decided

to

remove

some

podcast

episodes

of

Andrew

Tate.

Spotify

says

the

content

was

removed

because

it

violated

its

policies.

The

content's

already

been

removed

by

YouTube

and

TikTok.

Tate

is

a

self

described

misogynist.

In

fact,

in

the

uk.

Uk,

it

was

in.

It

was

mentioned

in

the

Houses

of

Parliament

at

the

PMQS

yesterday.

There's

a

new

show

called

Adolescence

that's

sort

of

really

hit

the

zeitgeist

at

the

Moment

in

the

uk

it's

about

what

they

call

incels,

boys

who

are

very

insular

and

celibate,

who,

who

play

games,

watch

porn

and

have

never

interacted

with

a

female.

And

they're,

they're

just

taking

in

all

the

Jordan

Peterson's,

the

Andrew

Tate

stuff.

And

women

are

awful,

people

of

color

are

awful.

It's

all

the

white

power

stuff.

And

yeah,

you

are

seeing

a

generation

of

young

men

who,

that

is

their

role

model.

And

the

question

is,

do

you

deplatform

somebody

like

that?

And

I

guess

here's

an

open

question

question.

The

podcast

index

was

partially

formed

to

prevent

deplatforming.

So

I

had

a

quick

look

and

there

are

10

plus

shows

from

Andrew

Tate.

I

didn't

even

know

had

one.

But

there

are

10

plus

shows

in

the

podcast

index.

Should

they

be

removed?

Should

those

episodes

be

removed?

Because

I

think

the

episode

that

was

removed

was

how

to

pimp

or

how

to

treat

women

in

that

way

where

you

can

pimp

them

out.

And

I

think,

you

know,

when

you're

putting

content

like

that

out,

I

think

it

should

be

removed.

But

there

you

go.

Yes,

I

think

it's,

it's

interesting

the

way

that

some

people

remove

content

is

to

make

it

available

in

search,

but

not

to

make

it

available

in

any.

If

you

like

this,

you

like

this

type

of

stuff.

So

it's

shadow

band,

if

you

like,

it's

still

available

in

the

net,

in

the,

in

the

system,

if

you

know

what

you

are

searching

for.

But

if

you

don't

know

what

you

are

searching

for,

you

will

never

find

that

stuff.

And

so

perhaps

that

is

something.

Therefore

the

podcast

index

arguably

doesn't

need

to

do

anything

about

it.

But

podcast

apps

should

consider,

you

know,

marking

some

of

these

things

to

be,

you

know,

not,

not

worthwhile,

you

know,

appearing,

you

know.

Yeah,

yeah,

I've

gone

one

stage

further.

He's

banned,

I'm

not

having

his

content

on.

And

if

you

don't

like

it,

well.

I,

I

think,

I

think

someone

else

is

absolutely

fine.

And

you

are

an

app

which

is

surfacing

this

information

in

front

of

people.

The

podcast

index

is

just

an

index.

And

I

guess

I

would

kind

of

argue

and

say

it's

up

to

the

app

developers,

but

what

is

possibly

a

useful

thing

is

for

someone,

and

I

don't

know

who

that

somebody

might

be.

Imagine,

imagine

the

excitement

of

it,

but

someone

producing

a

list

of,

you

know,

a

block

list,

if

you

like,

of

shows

that

shouldn't

really

be

appearing

in,

if

you

like

this,

you

like

this

or

pod

roles

or

any

algorithmic

lists.

And

perhaps

that's

the,

that's

the

way

forward.

Well,

when

you

say

his

Andrew

Tate's

best

friend

is

Donald

Trump,

I.

There's

a

saying,

a

Japanese

proverb,

when

the

character

of

a

man

is

not

clear

to

you.

Look

at

his

friends.

I

think

that

says

it

all.

Yes.

Donald

Trump

Jr.

By

the

way,

not

President

Donald

Trump.

Just

for

any

lawyers

listening,

he

was

allowed

though.

Tate,

not

Donald

Trump

Jr.

Was

allowed

to

return

to

the

US

after

the

change

in

administration

and

he

faces

charging

of

human

trafficking,

of

minors,

rape

and

money

laundering,

all

of

which

he

denies.

Again,

Andrew

Tate,

not

Donald

Trump

Jr.

So

just,

just,

just

to

be

totally

clear.

Yeah,

yeah,

please

God,

you're

the

one.

You're

the

one

traveling

to

America.

You,

you're

the

one

who

can

be

body

search,

not

me.

Yes,

yes.

Well,

there's

the

thing.

All

I'd

say,

ice,

ice,

baby.

Yes.

Good

luck.

Anyway,

let's

skip

away

from

all

of

that

and

let's

talk

about

podcasting

2.0.

No,

let's

talk

about

podcasting

3.0.

Why

don't

we

do

that?

Well,

we

will

by

the

end,

that's

for

certain.

Right.

Okay.

Now,

in

the

last

few

weeks,

we've

seen

a

number

of

friends

of

the

show

podcasts.

So

Danny

Brown,

Mark

Aswith,

Rob

Greenlee,

Todd

Cochran,

they're

all

talking

about,

has

podcasting

2.0

failed?

Has

the

lack

of

video.

What

is

the

lack

of

video

support

in

apps?

It's

not

a

first

party

client.

Right.

YouTube.

YouTube

wins

there.

And

last

week

Tom

Webster

talked

about

podcasting

3.0.

That

was

the

title.

But

he

actually

said

he

would

rather

possibly

talked

about

how

podcast

apps

are

failing

us.

And,

but

he

wasn't

feeling

that

grumpy,

so

he

thought

he'd

call

it

podcasting,

which

I

read.

And

I

have

to

say

I

pretty

much

100%

agreed

with

Tom

and

I

actually

have

to

say

I

agreed

with

Danny

Brown

and

Mark

Elsquith,

and

I

have

to

say

I

agreed

with

Rob

Greenlee

and

Todd

Cochrane.

They're

all

saying

that

we,

the

app

developers

are

not

providing

the

user

experience

that

we

should

be.

That

whole

conversation

is

about

how

the

apps

need

to

change

the

user

interface

interface

in

order

to

grab.

And

I

think

the

Infinite

Dial

talks

about

it

again.

You

know,

where

is

Gen

Z?

Where

is,

where

is

the

community

and

what's

the

experience

they

want?

And

I

think

as

an

app

developer,

I'm

probably

developing

only

a

podcasting

2

or

even

a

1.0

UI

at

the

moment.

Yes.

And

I

think

that

there

is

definitely

something

in

saying

that

the

idea

of

a

podcast

app,

and

this

has

been

Adam

and

Dave's

thing

for

the

last

couple

of

weeks.

The

idea

of

a

podcast

podcast

app

as

something

that

you

use

is

fine

for

lots

of

people,

but

also

not

so

fine

for

many

others.

And

it's

worthwhile

going

back

and

listening

to

Podcasting

2.0,

their

podcast

for

that,

and

indeed

their

interview,

which

you'll

find

the

full

version

of

in

this

feed

as

well

with

us.

And

I

think

that

there's

definitely

something

there.

I

mean,

I

think

the

whole

difficulty

with

all

of

this

is

podcasting

2.0

is

not

a

thing.

There

are

lots

of

individual

features,

some

of

which,

the

vast

majority

of

which,

let's

be

fair,

have

failed,

some

of

which

have

been

tremendously

successful.

The

podcast

transcripts

tag,

for

example,

has

been

tremendously

successful.

So

it's

a

lazy

thing

just

to

say,

has

podcasting

2.0

failed?

Because

there

isn't

anything

like

podcasting

2.0.

There

is,

though,

certainly

some

ideas

of,

you

know,

the,

the

future

in

terms

of

what

could

other

podcast

apps

look

like

now?

Tom

Webster

in

his

article

and

indeed

in

his

podcast,

ended

up

saying,

the

good

news,

I

believe,

and

the

good

news,

I

believe

is

that

a

lot

of

these

things

can

be

accomplished

by

AI

without

having

to

overhaul

rss.

Now,

I

would

potentially

say,

yes,

AI

certainly

has

a

part

to

play,

but

have

you

seen

the

RSS

RSS

feeds

from

many

podcasters

recently?

Because

the

RSS

feeds

are

not

great,

and

they

do

not

have

great

content

in

them

to

help

the

AI

agents.

I

mean,

you

know,

the

example

that

I

always

give

is

the

Joe

Rogan

podcast,

one

of

the

biggest

podcasts

in

the

world.

But

if

you

go

and

have

a

look

at

the

description

for

that

show,

then

you

get

absolutely

nothing

which

is

of

any

use

to

anybody.

Literally,

the

only

thing,

the

only

thing

it

says

is

the

official

podcast

of

comedian

Joe

Rogan.

That

is

the

full,

you

know,

thing

that

would

appear

in

any

podcast

app.

And

so

how

you

can

make

a

entertain

me

button,

as

I'm

going

to

call

it,

I

think

Tom

calls

it

something

different.

But

how

you

can

make

the

entertainment

me

button

from

information

from

publishers,

which

is

that

weak,

that

poor,

is

really

interesting.

So

I'd

love

to

sit

down

with

Tom

and

see,

well,

what

can

we

do

here?

Is

there

something

that

we

can

take