It's

Friday

14th

March

2025.

The

Last

Word

in

Podcasting

News

this

is

the

Pod

News

Weekly

Review

with

James

Kridlin

and

Sam

Sethi.

I'm

James

Kridland,

the

editor

of

Pod.

News

and

I'm

Sam

Sethi,

the

CEO

of

Truth

Analysis.

Doesn't

matter

who

the

client

is

or

what

the

type

of

project

is,

there

needs

to

be

some

strategy

around

YouTube.

YouTube

needs

to

be

part

of

the

story

no

matter

what.

That's

Anneliese

Nielsen

from

Pacific

Content

on

video

podcasting

and

more.

Plus

spot

money

for

artists

and

money

for

video

podcasts.

We've

got

feedback.

Spotify

Open

Access

or

is

it

Closed

access

Signs

another

partner,

Google

Kills

another

app

and

where's

the

best

place

to

record

an

Apple

Podcasts

chart

topping

show?

This

podcast

is

sponsored

by

Buzzsprout

with

the

tools,

support

and

community

to

ensure

you

keep

podcasting.

Start

podcasting.

Keep

podcasting

with

buzzsprout.com

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your

daily

newsletter.

The

Pod

News

Weekly

Review

O

Live

Live

Live

Live

Live.

It's

everything's

live.

Right

before

we

get

into

what's

going

on

with

live

everywhere

else,

Evergreen

has

launched

Evergreen

Now.

So

tell

me

more

about

that

first.

Yeah,

this

is

a

free

ad

supported

streaming

TV

channel.

It

works

on

your

Apple

Box

or

your

Android

phone

or

your

Roku

Television

as

the

Americans

love

to

play

with.

It's

a

free

to

watch

channel

which

includes

films

and

award

winning

podcasts,

presumably

from

Evergreen

Podcasts

Live

Sports

because

Evergreen

has

a

deal

with

a

particular

live

sport

and

I

can't

remember

which

it

is

but

it's

some

college

sport

thing.

So

yes,

Evergreen

now

is

one

of

these

fast

channels

which

is

now

available.

So

that's

sort

of

one

sort

of

side

of

the

live.

Also

another

sort

of

side

of

the

live

includes

things

like

the

news

agents

who

have

done

their

first

YouTube

Live,

which

is

a

big

UK

political

show,

Miss

Me,

which

is

a

show

produced

interestingly

for

the

BBC

by

Persephonica.

They

did

a

live

show,

a

couple

of

live

shows

at

London's

Hackney

Empire

and

both

nights

were

sold

out.

They've

just

said

that

their

Q

and

A

shows

will

be

available

on

YouTube

in

podcast

form,

which

makes

me

wonder

why

the

BBC

has

allowed

that

because

it's

a

BBC

show,

so

why

have

they

allowed

that

show

to

make

stuff

on

YouTube

rather

than

on

the

BBC

iPlayer?

But

anyway,

let's

not

go

there.

And

and

also,

you

know,

lots

more

video

podcasts

with

Michelle

Obama

have

been

announced

and

CBS

News

have

been

announced

and

goodness

knows

what

else.

So

clearly

the

future

is

all

about

live,

clearly

the

future.

Quite

a

lot

of

the

future

is

all

about

video

as

well,

I

guess.

Well,

we,

we

keep

talking

about

it,

but

I

thought

it

might

be

interesting.

Annalise

Nielsen

is

head

of

podcast

strategy

and

development

at

Lower

street,

part

of

Pacific

Content,

the

acquisition

that

was

made

last

year.

And

she

put

out

a

report

talking

about

YouTube's

1

billion

plays,

the

video

strategy

of

Spotify,

and

she

talks

about

something

else

called

the

Attention

Diet.

And

we

have

a

wonderful

conversation

about

women

in

podcasting.

Do

they

need

an

international

podcast

day

to

raise

awareness

for

women

in

podcasting?

And

why

aren't

more

women

in

podcasting?

And

yeah,

I

started

off

though

by

asking

Anna

Lee's.

Last

year,

Lower

street

bought

Pacific

Content.

You

were

there

at

Pacific

Content

when

it

was

purchased.

What's

changed?

What's

life

been

like

as

part

of

Lower

Street?

Well,

in

a

lot

of

ways

things

are

similar.

I

would

say,

like

my

role

is

pretty

similar

across

both

companies.

So

I

sit

sort

of

between

marketing

and

sales.

I,

you

know,

put

together

proposals

for

clients.

I

write

our

newsletter.

I

do

a

lot

of

thought

leadership

kind

of

content

and

plan

events

for

Lower

Street.

So

that's

maybe

something

that's

new

for

me

at

Lower

street,

but

still

sort

of

within

the

same

wheelhouse

as

what

I

was

doing

at

Pacific

Content.

And

I

would

say,

like

the

difference

between

the

two

companies

or

like

where

we're

at

now,

you

know,

Pacific

Content

was

previously

owned

by

a

very

large

media

conglomerate,

so

that

definitely

impacted

sort

of

day

to

day

business

and

now

part

of

a

scrappy

startup.

So

there's

a

lot

more

flexibility

that

comes

with

that.

We

are

also

a

global

team,

so

there

are

people

all

over

the

world

across

lots

of

different

time

zones,

which

is

pretty

cool.

And

we

all

work

remotely.

And

so,

yeah,

those

are

the

main

sort

of

differences,

I

would

say.

Lower

street

also,

like

with

the

acquisition

of

Pacific

Content,

has

much

more

of

a

broad

offering,

I

would

say,

than

Pacific

Content

did.

Pacific

Content

was

known

for

a

very

specific

type

of

project,

whereas

Lower

street,

you

know,

we

sort

of

run

the

gamut

in

what

we

can

offer

to

different

clients.

So

those

are,

I

would

say,

the

main

differences,

but

overall

a

lot

of

similarities.

A

lot

of

my

colleagues

from

Pacific

Content

came

over

to

Laura

street

as

well.

So

a

lot

of

familiar

faces

where.

I

am

too

now.

I

was

going

through

LinkedIn

and

I

saw

you

writing

about

YouTube

and

of

course

YouTube

is

now

the

flavor

of

the

month.

Everyone's

talking

about

it

allegedly

being

the

place

that

podcasting

should

be

and

everyone's

going

to

it.

What

are

your

initial

thoughts?

Where

is

YouTube

in

the

podcast

landscape

and

where

is

video

more

importantly

within

that

podcast

landscape

as

well?

Those

are

sort

of

two

different

questions.

I

think

that

in

a

lot

of

ways

we

conflate

video

with

YouTube,

and

I

don't

necessarily

think

that

those

are

the

same

thing.

But

to

start

to

level

set,

a

lot

of

the

conversation

around

YouTube

started

when

it

became

clear

that

YouTube

was

now

the

number

one

platform

that

people

are

using

to

consume

podcasts.

So

YouTube

beat

out

Spotify

and

Apple

podcasts

for

the

first

time.

And

that

was

a

huge

deal.

It

is

a

huge

deal.

We

should

definitely

be

thinking

about

that

data.

The

reality,

though,

is

that

it's

YouTube

and

then

there's

every

other

podcast

platform

that

exists

out

there.

And

for

the

most

part,

YouTube

is

the

only

platform

that

people

are

using

to

watch

video.

Now,

I

know

that

there's

exceptions

there.

I

know

that

Spotify

is

pivoting

towards

video.

I

know

that

Apple

has

video

capabilities.

I

know

that

lots

of

podcasts

that

podcast

2.0,

there's

lots

of

video

watching

capabilities.

Most

people

don't

even

know

that

they

can

watch

video

podcasts

across

these

other

platforms,

particularly

Apple,

which

has

always

had

video

podcasts.

And

so

for

the

majority

of

the

video

podcast

consumption

that's

happening

on

YouTube.

And

then

the

other

thing

I

will

say

is

like

YouTube

still

only

makes

up

about

30%

of

the

podcast

consumption

that

we

see.

So

yes,

it's

more

than

Spotify,

it's

more

than

Apple,

still

about

a

third

of

the

consumption.

So

if

we

sort

of

take

all

of

those

things

together,

then

we

can

say

like

video

consumption

primarily

happening

on

YouTube,

that's

really

still

only

about

or

a

third

of

the

consumption

that's

happening.

I

also

would

say

that

out

of

all

of

the

consumption

that's

happening

on

YouTube,

not

all

of

that

is

video.

Actually

video

watching.

A

lot

of

that

is

consumption

of

podcasts

that

were

published

on

YouTube

but

don't

have

a

video

component.

So

this

is

like,

you

know,

podcasts

that

are

published

with

just

a

static

image,

or

podcasts

that

are

published

on

YouTube

music

without

a

video

component.

So

that's

a

big

part

of

that

as

well.

And

then

there's

also,

you

know,

the

consumption

that

happens

where

there

is

a

video

element

of

the

podcast,

but

people

aren't

actually

watching

that,

they're

minimizing

their

screens.

I

think

we

know

now

a

huge

amount

of

YouTube

consumption

is

happening

on

people's

televisions.

So

they're

putting

it

on

and

then

they're

doing

other

things

in

the

background.

This

is

a

huge

trend

that

we

see

with

YouTube

now

and

YouTube's

really

leaning

into

that.

You

know,

there

was

a

recent

report

that

they're

beating

out

traditional

television

for

consumption

on

televisions.

And

that's,

you

know,

that

consumption

makes

a

lot

of

sense.

It's

something

to

put

on

in

the

background.

Does

that

mean

that

people

are

watching

those

entire

videos?

Those

entire,

you

know,

one,

two,

three

hour

long

episodes?

They're

not,

right?

It's

something

that's

on

in

the

background.

So

I

think

all

of

those

things

are

important

for

us

to

think

about

when

we

think

about

our

video

strategy.

When

it

comes

to

podcasts,

I

think,

you

know,

there's

a

lot

of

nuance

in

this

conversation

that

I

think

we're

missing

when

we

just

look

at

this

data

of,

you

know,

YouTube

is

winning

podcasts

and

we

all

need

to

pivot

to

video.

Like

maybe,

maybe

video

makes

the

most

sense

for

your

podcast

project.

Maybe

it

doesn't

make

the

most

sense

for

your

podcast

project.

Video

comes

with

a

lot

of

additional

costs

the

majority

of

the

time.

And

to

do

it

right,

especially,

there's

a

lot

of

costs

involved.

And

there's

also

a

lot

of

sacrifices

involved

in

making

a

video

podcast

because

it

means

that

you're

sacrificing

the

ability

to

do

things

that

you

can

do

with

audio

only

projects.

One

of

the

things

that

I've

noticed

recently

though

with

the

high

end

podcasts

is

that

they

are

moving

to

live

as

a

course

ratio.

So

if

you

look

at

podcasts

like

the

News

Agent

or

the

Rest

Is

Politics

or

even

Zateo

or

Rest

Is

Politics

usa,

some

of

the

politics

podcasts

I

watch,

so

you

know,

now

what

I

listen

to

or

watch.

Right.

But

they've

gone

live.

Why

do

you

think

they

are

also

moving

to

live?

What

are

your

thoughts?

I

see

what

you're

saying

and

I

do

see

that

trend

as

well.

I

don't

know,

I

think

that

there's

always

been

a

bit

of

a

live

element

in

podcasting.

It's

just

that

we

had

a

lot

more

live

in

person

events

back

in

the

day

before

COVID

That

was

a

huge

business

line

for

a

lot

of

podcasts.

Right.

Like

my

favorite

Murder

would

have

massive

tours

that

they

would

do

of

live

shows.

Criminal

still

does

like

massive

live

show

tours.

I

feel

like

they're

constantly

on

tour.

So

I

think

that's

kind

of

always

been

there

as

a

bit

of

an

element.

I

think

the

difference

is

now

it's

just

moved

to

being

more

of

a

digital

experience

rather

than

an

in

person

live

experience.

I

think

probably

part

of

this

comes

from

a

desire,

I

think

from

the

audience

to

interact

more

with

podcasters.

You

have

this,

like,

very

deep

parasocial

relationship

that

builds

between

a

listener

and

a

podcaster.

You

know,

we

know

that,

like,

podcasting

is

very.

It's

cliche

to

say

now,

but

it's

a

very

intimate

medium.

You're

listening

to

them

by

yourself,

usually

with

headphones

on.

Although

maybe

that's

changing

now

with

the

rise

of

YouTube

and

people

putting

it

on

in

the

background

on

their

TVs.

But

for

the

most

part,

you

know,

that's

what's

sort

of

been

a

strength

of

the

medium,

is

sort

of

this

relationship

that

builds

between

the

listener

and

the

podcaster.

And

I

think,

you

know,

most

podcast

platforms

do

not

really

support

interactivity

in

the

way

that

a

lot

of

other

platforms,

a

lot

of

other

digital

media

does.

Right.

Like,

social

media

really

is

built

on

that

interactivity.

That's

what

it's

for,

is

for

us

to

have

that,

you

know,

connection

to

somebody

and

being

able

to

go

back

and

forth

with

them.

And

YouTube

also

really

prioritizes

interactivity

between

the

creator

and

the

audience.

And

I

would

say

that,

you

know,

a

live

event

affords

that

type

of

interactivity

in

a

way

that

we

don't

really

get

in

other

spaces

in

podcasting.

So

maybe

that's

where

part

of

this

is

coming

from.

And

also

maybe

that's

part

of

the

push

on

YouTube.

Right?

Like,

YouTube

has

a

comment

section

that

is

usually

very

robust,

and

oftentimes

creators

are

in

that

comment

section

responding

to

people.

It's

more

of

a

conversation

compared

to

a

lot

of

other

podcast

platforms

that

I

know

that

there

are

lots

of

other

podcast

platforms

that

do

have

the

ability

to

allow

people

to

leave

comments

or

to

leave

reviews,

but

that

type

of

interactivity

is

not

something

that's

been

prioritized

or

emphasized

across

other

podcast

platforms.

So

maybe

that's

part

of

it.

The

last

part

I

wanted

to

cover,

it's

international

women

in

podcasting.

Right.

And

what

does

that

mean?

What

does

that

mean

for

you

as

a

woman?

What

does

that

mean

for

us

as

an

industry?

Where

do

men

fit

within

that

conversation?

So

let

me

go

back

to

one

of

the

points

that

you

made

that

was

around

Discoverability,

that

you

said

that

you

think

that

there

is

a

problem,

and

James

said

that

there

isn't.

And

I

think

I

agree

with

you

that

I

do

think

Discoverability

is

a

problem.

I

think

it's

always

been

a

problem

in

podcasting,

and

we

haven't

solved

that

problem

yet.

But

I

think

that

it

used

to

be

the

case

that

discoverability

was

the

issue

and

that

if

people

took

a

little

extra

time

to

dig,

you

could

find

really,

really

amazing,

great

content.

I'M

not

saying

that

that's

not

true

today.

I

know

that

there's

a

lot

of

amazing

podcasts

being

made,

but

I

think

that

we

are

slipping

into

a

space

where

there

is

also

a

content

problem.

The

quality

of

the

content

that

I'm

seeing

come

out

today,

it's

not

the

same

as

it

was

five

years

ago.

It's

just

not.

We've

seen

like

huge

budget

cuts.

We've

seen

pivots

towards

quantity

over

quality,

really.

Because

there's

an

understanding

that

if

I

can

just

throw

a

bunch

of

ad

markers

into

this

podcast

and

pump

out

content

every

other

day,

that

I'm

going

more

money

than

I

would

if

I

were

to

invest

in

quality

content

that

got

a

lot

more

downloads

over

much

fewer

episodes.

And

I

think

that,

like,

when

I

talk

to,

when

I

have

friends,

that

friends

reach

out

all

the

time

and

are

like,

what

are

you

listening

to?

What

should

I

listen

to?

I

don't

have

recommendations

like

I

used

to

have

for

them.

So

I

think

that

there's

a

real

risk

in

that.

And

I

bring

this

up

now

because

I

think

with

that

has

sort

of

come.

There's

a

huge

diversity

problem

in

podcasting

that

it's

always

been

there

again,

but

it

is

getting

much

worse.

And

being

in

New

York,

I

think

that

was

really

highlighted

for

me.

I

think

there

are

definitely

on

the

gender

side

of

things,

podcasting

has

always

been

much

more

male

dominated.

It

sort

of

started

as

like

a

tech

product

and

it

was

definitely

gated

and

very

difficult

to

get

into

if

you

were

a

woman

back

even

when

I

started

getting

into

podcasting

about

10

years

ago,

it

was

very

hard

to

find

anybody

who

would

help

me

to

learn

in

a

space

as

a

woman.

There

wasn't

a

lot

of

welcome

spaces

for

me

was.

There

was

a

lot

of

jargon

that

was

being

thrown

around

without

any

sort

of,

you

know,

attempt

to

sort

of

let

me

into

that

space.

And

it

took

a

lot

of

persistence

to

really

push

through

it

to

even

figure

out

how

to

set

up

an

RSS

feed,

frankly,

which

is

crazy

back

then.

So,

you

know,

I

think

there's

always

been

that

sort

of

as

a

through

line

in

podcasting.

And

that's

something

we

should

be

working

towards

fixing

for

sure.

I

think

we've

come

a

long

way.

I

think

podcasting

has

gotten

a

lot

more

accessible

for

women.

But

if

we

zoom

out

beyond

just

our

industry

and

see

how

people

perceive

us,

they

perceive

podcasting

as

being

a

space

for.

For

white

dudes

sitting

around

a

microphone.

Right?

That's

what

podcasting

is

to

a

lot

of

people.

That's.

That's

problematic.

And

I

would

say,

like,

beyond

women,

like,

there

is

a

huge

lack

of

people

of

color

who

are

on

microphones

right

now

and

podcasting.

And

it's.

It's

alarming

to

me.

Like,

at

On

Air

Fest,

I.

I

really

felt

that.

And

not.

This

isn't

a

dig

at

On

Airfest.

It's

just,

you

know,

looking

around

the

room,

it's

gotten

worse.

We

were

going

in

the

wrong

direction,

I

would

say.

And

that

is

alarming.

And

I

think,

again,

I

think

that

comes

with

the

lack

of

budgets,

huge

budget

cuts.

Unfortunately,

you

end

up

with

women

and

people

of

color.

Their

shows

get

cut

from

those

budgets.

So,

yeah,

I

think

that's

part

of

the

problem.

I

would

say,

like,

as

I'm

saying

this,

I

think

that

there's

a

little

bit

of

a

misconception,

too,

that,

you

know,

when

you

have

the

people

in

charge

be

primarily

white

men

who

are

making

these

decisions,

they

view

podcasts

that

are

hosted

by

women

and

are

about

women's

issues

as

being

niche

or,

like,

not

scalable,

and

that's

why

they

get

cut

early

on

or

they

never

get

made

in

the

first

place.

And

that's

just

not

the

case

at

all.

So,

yeah,

I

think

that's.

There's

also

probably

a

little

bit

of

that

happening

now.

Are

you

going

to

be

at

Chicago

for

podcast

movement?

Are

you

going

to

be

in

London

for

the

London

podcast

show?

Where

can

people

find

you?

So

I

would

love

to

be

at

both

of

those,

but

actually,

I

am

heading

off

on

maternity

leave

as

of.

Ah,

congratulations.

So

thank

you

very

much.

So,

yeah,

I

will

be

on

a

bit

of

a

break

from

about

a

year,

but

I

will

be

back

in

full

swing

again,

20,

26.

So,

yeah,

well,

look,

congratulations.

And

look,

when

you

come

back,

I

look

forward

to

meeting

up

with

you.

Thanks

a

lot.

And

there's

plenty

more

from

that

interview

on

Monday.

James,

I'm

sorry.

And

everyone

else,

I'm

sorry,

but

this

is

a

Spotify

full

show,

not

a

Spotify

free

show,

so

you

better

play

that

jingle.

We're

sorry,

but

now

it's

time

for

more

news

about

Spotify

on

the

POD

News

Weekly

review.

Oh,

good.

Oh,

there

we

are.

That's.

It's

always

good

to

hear

that,

isn't

it?

Oh,

good.

Sam,

what

have

we

got?

Well,

Spotify,

we

hear

loud

and

clear.

They've

got

the

Loud

and

clear

report

out,

and

they

say

they've

got

a

record

$10

billion

payout.

Now,

I've

got

some

thoughts

on

what

the

report

said,

but

I

can't

be

critical.

$10

billion

paid

out

is

a

fantastic

number.

Now,

this

is

for

music

artists,

isn't

it?

They

haven't

released

anything

about.

They've

paid

for

podcasters.

But

for

music

artists,

yes,

$10

billion

in

2024.

It

brings

total

lifetime

payouts

from

Spotify

to

nearly

$60

billion.

They're

always

very

careful

to

talk

about

paying

publishing

rights

holders

because

Spotify

themselves

don't

pay

artists

or

songwriters

directly.

No,

this

is

the

thing

you

keep

saying

as

well,

when

everyone

goes,

oh,

you

make

no

money

on

Spotify

when

you're

a

music

artist.

And

you

say,

and

correctly

say,

by

the

way,

that

it's

not

Spotify's

job

to

pay

the

artist

directly.

And

Daniel

Ek

had

a

post

on

your

favorite

platform,

LinkedIn

talking

about

fundamentally,

he

says,

Spotify

doesn't

actually

pay

artists

or

songwriters

directly.

We

pay

rights

holders

like

label,

record

labels

and

publishers.

And

it's

up

to

the

artist

based

on

the

contracts

they've

signed

to

the

amount

of

money

they

get

paid.

But,

you

know,

and

again,

I

suppose

that's

the

stick

that

everyone

gets

beaten

with

or

beats

Spotify

with.

And

Daniel,

like

you,

is

saying,

no,

no,

no,

we

make

the

payouts.

Two

thirds

of

all

the

money

gets

paid

out,

but

we

can't

determine

how

much

of

that

money

then

gets

handed

on

to

the

artist.

Well,

it's

quite

a.

It's

the

battle

of

the

billions,

isn't

it?

Because

here's

Spotify

talking

about

$10

billion

to

the

music

industry

and

of

course,

YouTube

last

week

saying

that

they

have

1

billion

listeners

to

podcasts.

One

billion

listeners.

And

so

I

guess,

you

know,

oh,

YouTube

has

just

released

a

big

number.

Why

don't

we

release

a

bigger

number?

But,

yeah,

I

did

wonder

if

that

was

the

case.

It

was

like

a

Fu

to

YouTube.

Yeah,

you

might

have

lots

of

people

watching,

but

we

have

lots

of

people

paying.

Yes.

Which

is

the

bigger,

bigger

announcement,

I

guess.

Yes,

I

guess

so.

Spotify,

interestingly,

didn't

send

that

to

me,

but

they

did

send

an

email

saying

that

Bill

Simmons

is

going

to

stay

at

Spotify.

Now,

the

interesting

thing

from

the

PR

people,

Bill

Simmons

to

remain

at

Spotify

as

head

of

talk

strategy,

reporting

into

newly

appointed

head

of

podcast

business,

Roman

Wassenmuller.

Now,

Roman

wassenmuller.

Excellent

name,

crazy

name.

Crazy

guy.

I

ended

up

sitting

down

with

him

when

I

was

in

la

anyway,

so

he

is

a

very

interesting

guy.

He's

worked

at

Spotify

and

various

things

for

quite

some

time

now.

What

they

didn't

say

is

that

Bill

Simmons

used

to

be

called

head

of

talk

strategy

and

monetization

for

Spotify.

He's

now

just

called

head

of

Talk

strategy.

So

he's

actually

dropped

a

bit,

possibly

because

he

hasn't

really

been

too

keen

on

the

whole

video

thing.

So,

you

know,

from

Spotify,

he

seems

to

be

much

more

interested

in

pushing

YouTube.

So.

But,

you

know,

interesting

to

see

that

he

is

staying

at

Spotify.

Last

month

was

five

years

since

Spotify

acquired

the

ringer,

but,

you

know,

certainly

resigning.

So.

Yes,

interesting

too.

Has

he

moved

his

video

over

to

Spotify?

Yeah,

I

mean,

some

of

his

video

is

on

Spotify.

There

is

a.

So

the.

The

note

says.

And

the

note

is

a

very

strange

note.

It's

seemingly

Spotify's

word

wrap

has

completely

failed.

So

it's

a

very

wide

email.

But

the

video

says

that

Spotify's

the

Ringer

is

rolling

out

video

across

its

podcast

portfolio

now,

with

the

majority

of

shows

featuring

video

episodes.

Well,

that's

been

the

case

on

YouTube

for

quite

some

time.

It

then

has

a

video

case

study,

Talk

the

Thrones,

which

introduce

video

episodes

on

Spotify

and

quickly

saw

a

70%

increase

in

followers,

with

84%

of

new

users

actively

watching

in

the

foreground.

This

seems

to

be

a

trope

from

Spotify

that

they

will

say,

introduce

video

and

you

get

a

significant

increase

in

followers,

which

I

don't

fully

kind

of

understand

why

that

would

be

the

case.

But

nevertheless,

that's

what

Spotify

is

saying.

So.

Yeah,

and

I

thought

it

was

interesting.

I

mean,

it's

five

bullet

points

that

I

got

from

the

Spotify

PR

people.

And

one

of

those

bullet

points

was

all

about

video

and

how

Spotify

is

really

leaning

into

video

for

the

ringer,

which

I

thought,

I

wonder

why

they

would

be

so

keen

in

pointing

that

one

out.

Todd

Cochrane

and

Rob

Greenlee.

And

they

were

talking.

That's

right,

Todd.

Yeah.

It's

like

he's

in

the

room

and

basically,

great

show.

Worth

listening

to.

They're

talking

about

lots

and

lots

of

things

to

do

with

audio

and

video.

And

one

of

the

things

they

talked

about

was

the

user

experience

on

audio

first

podcast

apps,

right?

And

they're

talking

about

Spotify

being

a

video

now

app

and

how

the

UI

does

not

lean

or

lend

itself

into

video

discovery.

So

if

you

actually

try

and

find

a

video

podcast

on

Spotify's

app,

it's

not

easy

to

find.

You

have

to

search

for

it,

then

it

doesn't

autoplay

it.

It

plays

the

audio

version

first

and

then

you

have

to

choose

an

option

to

play

the

video.

And

again,

the

thing

that

you

say

the

PR

people

are

telling

you

is

that

there's

an

up

increase

in

the

number

of

people

who

follow

video

because

now

video

is

there.

Right.

I

could

get

that

if

it

was

TikTok,

the

report

we

had

a

couple

of

weeks

back,

which

was,

you

know,

the

follower

count

is

dead.

And

the

idea

is

that

the

algorithm

of

TikTok

is

just

presenting

video

after

video

after

video.

I

could

see

that

people

would

then

start

clicking

on

the

follow

button

because

they're

new

users

being

discovered

video

from

a

new

creator

that

they

didn't

know

about.

And

therefore

they

just

go,

oh,

that's

really

cool.

Click,

follow,

follow.

But

when

you're

on

Spotify,

that

isn't

the

algorithmic

experience.

You're

just

having

to

find

the

one

you

want,

then

you

have

to

choose

the

video,

then

you

might

lean

into

it

or

lean

back

from

the

video,

whichever

way

you're

going.

So

I

don't

agree

that

they

could

have

so

much

of

an

increase

in

the

number

of

followers

just

because

they've

added

video

to

the

podcast

feed.

And

I

think

one

of

the

interesting

things

about

the

new

media

show

is

Rob

Greenlee

tries

everything

and

is

very

keen

to

try

new

technology

and

make

sure

that

that

works.

I

don't

think

that

Todd

Cochrane

any

of

these

new

tools.

I'm

not

sure

that

he

knows

what

any

of

these

new

tools

are

if

he'd

actually

tried

Spotify.

I

just

did

a

search

for

the

ringer,

found

the

Bill

Simmons

show,

pressed

the

play

button.

Now,

it's

not

obvious

that

it's

video,

but

once

you

get

into

the

podcast

and

you

press

the

play

button,

it

is

in

full

screen

and

it

just

plays

the

video

in

full

screen.

And

I

wonder

on

the

new

media

show

how

much

of

it

is

Todd

Cochrane,

who

simply

hasn't

tried

anything,

just

making

stuff

up

in

the

confid

way

that

us

white

men

do.

So

brown

men

do

it

as

well.

Hey,

I

could

do

that.

I

just

thought

to

go,

you

know,

it's

not

you.

You

white

men

don't

have

the

monopoly

on

making

up.

Yes,

yes,

I'm

confidently

spouting

bullshit,

but

I

think

certainly,

I

think

certainly

that

is

an

interesting

one.

And

I

think

making

the

UI

clearer,

it's

certainly

not

clear

when

you're

searching

for

the

ringer.

For

example,

you

wouldn't

know

which

of

those

is

a.

Is

a

video

podcast

and

which

of

those

is

an

audio

one.

So,

yeah,

I

certainly

think

that

there's

some

work

to

be

going

on

there.

One

of

the

things

with

Annalise

Nielsen

from

Pacific

Content,

one

part

we

talked

about

would

Spotify

be

a

good

podcast

app

if

it

didn't

have

the

music?

So

if

you

could

take

all

the

music

away

from

Spotify,

and

it

was

just

a

Standalone

podcast

app.

Is

it

a

good

podcast?

Well,

yes.

No,

it's

the

quick

answer.

No,

no,

it's

not.

It's

a

rubbish

podcast

app,

the

ui.

I

mean,

I

have

to

say,

I

think,

you

know,

I

mean,

my

views

are

pretty

clear

on

this.

I

actually

think

that

the

Apple

Podcasts

app

itself

is

very

nice.

The

UI

is

very.

Is

very

good.

It

seems

to

work

quite

nicely,

but

it's

not

a

good

player.

The

actual

player

is

not

very

good.

And

that's

the

reason

why

I

use

Overcast.

The

UI

is

slightly

less

good.

It

has

slightly

less

features,

but

the

player,

when

you're

playing

the

audio,

it

has

voice

boost,

it

has

speed,

you

know,

skip

smart,

speed,

whatever

it

is,

it's

got

all

of

that

stuff

around

the

player.

And

that

is

why

I

end

up

using

that.

Because

I

mean

that

at

the

end

of

the

day,

that's

what

matters,

really.

But

yes,

completely

agree

that

Spotify

and

YouTube

Music

are

both

not

very

good

podcast

apps.

And

I

think

that's

an

interesting

point

that

Annalise,

that

Annalise

makes,

is

that,

you

know,

if.

If

it

didn't

have

everything

else

in

there,

would

you

still

use

it

as

a

podcast

app?

And

I,

I'm

sure

that

the

answer

is

no.

Yeah.

And

I

think,

you

know

what

I

find,

obviously,

with

my

CEO

of

True

Fans

hat

I,

I

look

at

other

apps

from

time

to

time

and

yeah,

what

you

notice

is

Spotify

is

trying

to

jam

more

and

more

into

the

same

UI

without

changing

the

UI

completely.

And

it's

becoming,

I

think,

nearly

impossible

to

discover

most

of

the

features

that

they're

building

now

because

they're

so

layered

that

you

actually

can't

find

things,

you

know,

on

the,

on

the

homepage.

It

was

one

of

those

things

that

I

said

to

Roman,

actually.

I

said,

look,

I,

I've,

you

know,

I

hadn't

used

Spotify

for

a

number

of

years.

I'm

back

using

Spotify.

There

are

so

many

new

features

in

there.

But

I

only

noticed

them

because

I've

been

away

from

the

product

for

a

number

of

years.

And

he

said,

yeah,

it's

a

problem

that

we've

got,

you

know,

it's

a

problem

that

we've

got

that

actually,

you

know,

we're

always

rolling

out

new

features,

but

how

do

you

communicate

those

well

and,

you

know,

without

covering

your

app

full

of,

you

know,

Windows

saying

new,

you

know,

every

time

you

hit

a

button.

So,

yeah,

I

find

that

fascinating.

Now,

you

got

some

other

feedback

from

Spotify

because

Amanda

McLaughlin

had

said

that

her

clients

were

not

happy

with

the

amount

of

money

they

were

making

from

video

podcasting

on

Spotify

and

in

fact

that

they'd

left

the

program

and

gone

back

to

the

Spotify

Span

program,

which

is

the

Spotify

advertising

network.

So

what

did

Spotify

say?

Come

on.

Yeah,

so

Spotify

gave

us

a

statement

that

says,

while

we

can't

comment

on

specific

creators

or

shows,

just

remember

that

creators

who

joined

the

Spotify

partner

program

late

in

the

month

have

irregular

posting

schedules

or

experience

broader

declines

in

audience

engagement,

may

see

lower

initial

earnings

and

less

accurate

month

to

month

comparisons.

Are

you

not

just

commenting

on

exactly

that

specific

creator

or

show

there?

Spotify

spokesperson?

Because

I

checked

and

the

particular

show

that

Amanda

McLaughlin

signed

up

joined

the

the

platform

in

the

middle

of

January.

So

I

think

it

was.

Well,

I

can't

say

which

what

date

it

was,

but

let's

just

say

it

was

in

the

middle

of

January

because

otherwise

you'll

guess

who

it

is.

Irregular

posting

schedules.

Yes,

this

particular

show

has

irregular

posting

schedules.

Sometimes

it

posts

more

than

one

show

a

day.

Experience

broader

declines

in

audience

engagement.

Well,

it

did

see

a

slight

drop

between

December

and

January.

So

basically

Spotify

have

said

we

can't

comment

on

specific

creators

or

shows,

but

let's

comment

on

this

particular

creator

or

show

and

say

that

that's

the

reason

why

it's

not

doing

very

well.

And

at

the

end

of

it,

you

know,

my

query

back

to

Spotify

was,

I

don't

understand

if

this

show

joined.

Let's

just

say

that

this

show

joined

on

the

15th

of

January.

If

this

show

joined

on

the

15th

of

January,

why

would

that

have

made

a

difference

to

the

amount

of

money

earned

through

Spotify

video

versus

Span?

Because

if

you've

halved

the

amount

of

money

that

you've

earned

on

Span,

you've

got

half

of

that

money

back

through

Spotify,

through

the

Spotify

video

thing.

So

surely

that

wouldn't

have

made

any,

any

difference

at

all.

And

there

was

a

kind

of

an

er

from

Spotify

and

they

promised

to

get

back

to

me

and

they

haven't.

So,

you

know,

I'm

not

quite

sure

what's

going

on

there.

Spotify

spokesperson

goes

on

and

says,

overall,

though

it's

still

early,

the

program

has

proven

valuable

for

the

vast

majority

of

enrolled

shows.

Proven

valuable

for

is

not

earning

more

money

than

Span,

you

know,

so

again,

that's

just

worthwhile

bearing

in

mind

Amanda

McLaughlin

came

back

to

me

and

said,

look,

you

know,

our

experience

is

my

client

opted

into

video

on

Spotify,

lost

a

pretty

significant

chunk

of

money

during

their

first

month

in

the

programme.

We've

made

the

best

decision

for

us

with

the

data

we've

received

and

we've

opted

out

and

that's

as

far

as

it

goes.

Now,

what

I

would

love

is

to

hear

from

other

creators.

So

far

we've

heard

from

one

creator

and

that

creator

has

not

had

a

good

experience

with

the

Spotify

video

Partner

program.

It'd

be

lovely

to

hear

from

some

more.

And

if

they're

doing

fantastically,

then

great.

I

would

give

Spotify

one

get

out

of

jail

card,

which

is.

It

is

early

days,

right?

We

can't,

you

know,

throw

the

baby

out

with

a

bath

water

just

after

one

or

two

months

of

data

because

I

don't

think

there's

insufficient

time.

I

would

agree.

No,

I

would

agree

with

that.

Except

the

method

of

earning

money

out

of

this,

they're

not

finding

clients

to

start

advertising.

I

could

understand

if

this

was

the

other

way

around,

if

somebody

had

junked

the

Spotify

Partner

program

to

join

span,

to

join

the

Spotify

Advertising

Network,

that

Spotify

audience

network,

if

we

could

be

strictly

accurate

that

obviously

you

need

to

find

clients,

you

need

to

educate

them

on

this

particular

show,

blah,

blah,

blah.

You

know,

that

is

not

going

to

be

instantaneous.

It

is

going

to

be

instantaneous

the

other

way

because

it's

a

revenue

share

of

the

money

that

Spotify

is

earning.

So

I'm

not

sure

I

buy

the.

But

it's

early

days

for

the

Spotify

Partner

program.

I

could

totally

buy

it.

If

you're

joining

SPAN

and

you

wonder

where

the

money

is

on

your

first

month,

you're

not

going

to

have

very

much

money

on

the

first

month.

But

for

the

Spotify

Partner

program,

I'm

not

so

sure.

Well,

I'm

sure

we'll

come

back

to

this

one,

James.

Now,

the

final

bit

of

the

Spotify

trilogy

of

stories.

Spotify

is

going

to

mark

audiobooks

as

AI.

What's

going

on,

James?

Yes.

So

they

launched

a

product

from

ElevenLabs,

which

essentially,

if

you

are

a

author

and

you've

written

the

book

and

you

want

an

audiobook

version

of

that

to

appear

on

Spotify,

then

you

can

press

a

couple

of

buttons

and

a

voice

from

elevenlabs

will

essentially

make

you

an

audiobook

version

with

that,

that

AI

voice.

So

that's

what

they

are

doing.

You

will

they

say

that

they

are

going

to

be

marking

the

use

of

AI.

So

you

know

that

a

particular

book

has

been,

you

know,

done

by

AI.

But

that's

the

announcement

that

they

made

at

the

end

of

last

month.

Now,

we've

talked

about

in

the

past

using

NotebookLM

and

we've

talked

about

WonderCraft

or

talked

about

other

tools

for

creating

AI

voices.

And

we've

said

that

in

RSS

there's

the

explicit

tag.

But

we

don't

have

a

AI

tag

yet.

Right.

So

there

isn't

a

standardization

of

marking

up

an

RSS

feed

that

the

hosts

were

AI

or

the

content

was

created.

And

I

don't

think

content

being

created

with

AI

is

that

important,

but

the

hosts

are

AI.

And

if

Spotify

is

doing

this,

are

they

going

to

give

the

industry

a

standard

that

allows

us

to

follow

in

the

way

that

we

all

should

mark

up

content

that

is

AI,

or

is.

Are

we

going

to

still

have

to

come

up

with

our

own

standard

as

well?

Sorry,

I'm

just.

I'm

just

checking.

You've

just

said

the

word

Spotify

and

standard

in

the

same

phrase.

Okay,

okay.

No,

I

mean,

no.

Yes.

Well,

I

will

tell

you

no,

because

it's

internal

to

Spotify.

It's

an

audiobook

which

is

internal

to

Spotify.

It's

not

sent

out

via

RSS

to

anywhere

else.

So

Spotify

has

no

standard

that

they

wish

to

end

up

doing.

Now,

the

way

that

it

is

mentioned

that

it

is

an

AI

read

book

is

in

two

places.

Firstly,

it

will

clearly

say

AI

in

the

book

metadata

in

the

app,

so

you

will

clearly

know

that

it

is

voiced

by

AI.

But

also

the

first

words

you

hear

are

this

book

has

been

invoice

by

AI

or

something

similar

in

the

actual

audio

itself.

And

I

think

there's

a

bit

of

a.

There's

a

bit

of

a

misunderstanding

from

quite

a

lot

of

people

that

just

putting

something

in

the

show

notes

absolves

you

of

mentioning

it

in

the

audio.

That

is

absolutely

not

the

case.

And

I

have

found

now

quite

a

lot

of

information

from

the

ftc,

from

the

Federal

Trade

Commission,

basically

saying,

no,

it's

not

good

enough

just

to

put

something

in

the

show

notes.

It

has

to

be

in

the

audio

or

in

the

video

as

well.

So

that's

the

way

that

Spotify

is

doing

it.

Fun

fact,

by

the

way.

I

asked

the

ftc,

I

got

in

touch

with

their

press

office

and

was

asking

them

about

this

for

a

story

that

I'm

going

to

be

writing

soon

about

making

it

clear

that

you've

been

paid

for

something.

And

a

very

nice

man

from

the

FTC

was

helping

me

with

that

inquiry.

And

then

all

of

a

sudden,

after

Doge

and

everything

else,

he's

not

replying

to

any

of

my

emails.

Can't

think

why

that.

Oh,

yes,

because

he's

been

fired.

Really?

Yes,

absolutely.

So,

yes,

there's

a

thing.

The

only

joy

I

have

this

at

the

moment

is

watching

the

test.

The

share

price

on

a

daily

basis

drop

like

a

rock.

Wow.

But

other

than

that,

it's

Very

sad.

Now,

one

of

the

things

that

we

have

in

the

past

talked

about

in

the

GitHub

podcast

community

is

how

do

we

do

AI

James?

So

I'm

going

to

ask

you,

should

there

be

an

AI

tag?

Is

this

the

way

forward?

Now,

I

was

having

a

conversation

with

John

McDermott

from

Cannaroga

Shark

Media

the

other

week,

who

listens

to

this

particular

show,

and

he

was

promoting

a

new

show

which

is

called

White

Smoke,

which

is

all

about

what

happens

when

the

Pope

dies.

I

think

he

may

have

spotted

an

SEO

opportunity

there

anyway.

And

of

course,

it's

all

AI

voiced.

So

he

ended

up

using

AI

plus

human

intervention

to

make

a

script

to

make

a

series

of

six

or

eight

shows.

They've

been

AI

voiced.

They

sound

quite

good,

apparently,

and

that's

all

fine.

And

I

said,

where

does

it

say

that

it's

AI?

And

he

kind

of

pushed

back

on

that

a

little

bit

and

said,

why

is

that

important

if

it

sounds

good

enough?

And

I

thought,

well,

that's

an

interesting

point.

And

then

it

reminded

me

of

Queens

A

Night

at

the

Opera

album.

Do

you

have

Queens

A

Night

at

the

Opera

album?

I

did.

I

don't

have

any

vinyl.

I

stupidly

sold

it.

Well,

in

the

vinyl,

in

the

gatefold,

there

was

a

bit

on

the

gatefold

that

said,

no

electronic

instruments,

keep

music

live,

or

something

of

that

sort.

So

there

was

actually

a

not

AI,

if

you

like

it.

If

you

like

it

that

way

thing

in

that.

Now,

obviously,

you

know

what

happened

to

Queen.

They

ended

up

suddenly

realising

that

they

could

prod

the

much

better,

more

exciting

music,

arguably

using

electronics

rather

than

just

acoustic

instruments.

And

so

it

comes

back

to.

Do

you

insist

that

every

Howard

Jones

track

has

a

declaration

on

the

track

as

you

start

playing

it,

saying,

this

track

includes

the

use

of

a

drum

machine?

I

mean,

no,

but

I

would

like

them

to

include

it

that

this

singer

can't

sing

and

has

used.

Oh,

well,

there

we

are.

That

would

be

lovely.

Well,

there

we

are.

You

know,

Cheryl

Cole,

Spice

Girls,

name

them

all.

Right,

who.

Who,

when

you

hear

them

without

Auto

Tune,

sound

like

a

cat

screeching.

Yeah,

I'd

love

the

Auto

Tune

label

on

that,

please.

But

they

won't

do

that.

And

pushing

back

on

John

a

little

bit,

it

give

me

the

choice.

Right,

John?

Yes,

I

agree.

The

AI

voices

are

getting

much,

much

better.

It's.

It's.

There's

a

really

cool

new

AI

that

came

out

this

week

called

Sesame,

and

the

character

voice

is

called

Mayor

and

it

is

truly

amazing.

It's

conversational

AI

and

every

demo

I've

seen,

and

I've

tried

it

myself,

it

is

very,

very

hard

to

tell

that

you're

not

talking

to

a.

A

normal

person.

The

quality

is

unbelievable.

And

so

I

can

see

how,

you

know,

going

down

the

road,

that

the

Alan

Turing

Test.

Will

we

be

able

to

tell

that

this

is

a

computer?

I

think

we

will

failed.

And

they

will

pass

the

Alan

Turing

Test.

Right.

And

we

will

fail.

Yeah.

I

think

there's

a

bunch

of

people

who

are

listening

to

some

of

the

Kalaoroka

Shark

media

stuff

now,

or

too

many

other

podcasts

who

don't

necessarily

realize

that

they're

listening

to

an

AI

voice.

I

guess

my

mind

has

been

changed

somewhat,

remembering

Queen's

album,