When

you

talk

about

a

business

like

ours

building

the

first

facility,

it

requires

planning,

it

requires

engineering,

it

requires

getting

bids

on

the

on

everything

that

you

need

and

obviously

all

that.

But

it

also

requires

on

the

other

side,

the

ability

to

do

extracts

so

we

can

go

into

the

nature

super

pool,

the

ability

to

have

an

offtake

agreement.

If

you

don't

have

a

good

offtake

agreement

for

the

product

that

you're

producing

than

the

financial

model

that

you're

building.

I

mean,

there's

a

term

that

we

use

that

Excel

can

take

anything

you

can

put

in

whatever

number

you

want

into

an

Excel,

it

will

do

the

calculation,

it

will

give

you

your

IRR

and

what

you

need.

But

at

the

end

of

the

day,

you

also

need

to

perform.

Welcome

to

the

Vertical

Farming

Podcast.

Weekly

conversations

with

fascinating

CEOs,

founders

and

agtech

visionaries.

Join

us

every

week

as

we

dive

deep

into

the

world

of

vertical

farming

with

your

host,

Harry

Duran.

Vertical

Farming

podcast

season

12

regular

listeners

to

the

show.

Welcome

back.

Rolling

out

the

red

carpet

for

you.

Thank

you

so

much

for

everything

you

do

to

support

the

show,

whether

it's

just

by

listening

to

this

episode,

sharing

this

episode,

or

a

past

episode

with

a

colleague,

engaging

on

our

socials,

supporting

us

at

everything

we're

doing

at

igrow

News.

Thank

you

so

much

for

everything

you

DO

under

the

AgTech

Media

Group

umbrella.

We

really

appreciate

it.

If

this

is

your

first

time

listening,

I'm

positive

you're

in

the

right

place.

It's

the

show

where

we

interview

fascinating

CEOs

and

founders

of

the

leading

vertical

farming

companies

from

around

the

world.

I'm

your

host

Harry

Duran,

co

founder

of

the

AgTech

Media

Group,

founder

of

Fullcast,

our

full

service

podcast

production

agency

and

podcaster

since

2014

with

my

first

show,

Podcast

Junkies.

In

case

you

missed

last

week's

episode,

we

had

a

great

conversation

with

with

Mark

Oshima.

Mark

is

the

new

CEO

of

Babylon

Microfilms

and

we

had

a

great

conversation

about

the

exciting

developments

in

his

world

and

how

they're

revolutionizing

our

connection

to

food.

He

brings

such

a

wealth

of

experience

from

his

time

as

co

founder

and

CMO

of

AeroFarms

and

he

offered

valuable

insights

into

the

industry's

evolution

and

the

challenges

of

scaling

an

indoor

farming

business.

So

please

check

that

out

if

you

haven't

done

so

already.

This

week

we

have

the

pleasure

of

speaking

with

Michael

Oster.

He's

the

CEO

of

Saffron

Tech

and

we

talk

about

the

fascinating

world

of

vertical

farming

and

the

potential

of

saffron

as

a

high

value

crop.

His

journey

from

oil

and

gas

to

ag

is

a

testament

to

the

power

of

embracing

new

challenges

and

opportunities.

We

dive

into

the

intricacies

of

Saffron

production

and

Michael

shared

valuable

insights

on

scaling

up

from

R

and

D

to

commercial

operations.

We

explored

the

unique

challenges

of

vertical

farming,

the

importance

of

balancing

ambition

with

realistic

expectations,

and

the

potential

applications

of

Saffron

beyond

its

use

as

a

spice.

Michael's

experience

in

business

management

and

M

and

A

brings

a

fresh

perspective

to

the

ag

tech

space

and

he's

offering

listeners

a

blend

of

entrepreneurial

wisdom

and

industry

specific

knowledge.

So

please

pay

attention.

Here

are

five

great

takeaways

from

this

episode

I

want

you

to

listen

out

for

one.

When

evaluating

a

startup

or

new

business

venture,

focus

on

the

potential

applications

and

market

value

of

the

product

for

Saffron

Tech.

The

high

value

and

diverse

applications

of

Saffron,

which

are

culinary,

medicinal

and

supplements,

provide

strong

market

potential.

2.

Don't

underestimate

the

challenges

of

scaling

up

from

R

and

D

to

commercial

production.

Carefully

plan

each

stage

of

growth

and

identify

and

address

issues

before

full

scale

commercialization.

3.

Balance

Short

term

priorities

with

long

term

vision.

Safran

Tech

is

currently

focused

on

commercial

plant

development

while

keeping

pharmaceutical

applications

as

a

future

goal

once

production

is

established.

4.

Secure

offtake

agreements

early

to

validate

market

demand

and

reduce

risk

this

goes

without

saying,

if

you've

been

listening

to

this

show

for

any

time

period,

you

know

that's

a

big,

big

consideration.

5.

Building

conservative

assumptions

and

contingencies

when

planning

projects,

especially

for

timelines

and

budgets.

Michael

goes

into

this

in

detail

in

the

episode,

so

listen

out

for

that.

If

you

enjoy

this

episode

or

a

past

episode,

I

have

one

ask

for

you.

Please

share

this

with

a

friend.

It's

one

of

the

best

ways

to

grow

the

show.

Send

them

the

Spotify

link,

the

Apple

link,

or

just

send

them

to

verticalfarmingpodcast.com

if

you're

feeling

extra

generous.

I'd

love

it

if

you

leave

a

rating

and

a

review@verticalfarmingpodcast.com

Love.

I'll

be

sure

to

read

yours

out

next.

And

remember,

these

episodes

are

full

of

great

takeaways,

but

as

a

listener,

I

want

you

to

focus

all

your

energy

on

our

conversation.

Rest

assured,

you

can

always

visit

verticalfarmingpodcast.com

to

read

the

full

show

notes

for

each

episode,

which

includes

all

guest

links

as

well.

Okay,

before

we

jump

into

this

uninterrupted

conversation

with

Michael,

a

few

words

from

the

amazing

partners

that

support

this

show.

Indoor

farming

is

evolving

fast

and

the

demand

for

fresh,

local

and

sustainable

produce

is

skyrocketing.

But

what's

really

driving

the

industry

forward

that's

exactly

what

we

uncover

in

the

2025

Indoor

Farming

Market

Research

Report.

Authored

by

IGRO

News

editor

Sepper

Ashard

and

woman

in

CEA

founder

Tea

Otto,

this

deep

dive

into

the

state

of

controlled

environment

agriculture

in

the

US

is

packed

with

the

latest

insights,

market

trends,

investment

outlooks,

game

changing

technologies

and

the

biggest

opportunities

shaping

the

future

of

food

production.

Did

you

know

that

the

US

indoor

farming

market

is

projected

to

hit

8.6

billion

by

2030?

Or

that

AI

and

automation

are

rapidly

changing

how

we

grow

crops

year

round?

This

report

doesn't

just

highlight

challenges,

it

gives

you

a

roadmap

for

success.

Whether

you're

a

grower,

investor

or

agtech

innovator,

this

is

your

guide

to

staying

ahead.

Download

the

full

report@verticalfarmingpodcast.com

report

don't

just

watch

the

future

of

farming

be

part

of

it.

That's

verticalfarmingpodcast.com

report

or

click

the

link

in

the

show

notes

the

world

of

agtech

is

vast

and

constantly

evolving,

with

new

innovations

and

companies

emerging

at

a

rapid

pace.

At

AgTech

Media

Group,

we

understand

the

importance

of

staying

updated

and

connected

in

this

dynamic

industry,

and

that's

why

we're

thrilled

to

have

created

the

AgTech

Companies

Directory.

A

comprehensive

and

user

friendly

resource

designed

to

help

you

navigate

the

complex

landscape

of

agtech.

Innovators

is

more

than

just

a

list.

It's

a

curated

collection

of

companies

leading

the

charge

in

transforming

the

agtech

sector

from

startups

pioneering

new

farming

methods

to

established

companies

adopting

cutting

edge

technologies.

We're

pleased

to

be

partnering

with

companies

such

as

Harvest

Returns,

Spectra,

Gro

Verde

Compacto,

Let

Us

Grow,

Arnoix

Greenhouses,

Ounce

of

Hope

aquaponics,

women

in

CEA

and

GrowTech

as

some

of

our

early

featured

companies,

our

directory

spans

a

wide

range

of

leaders

dedicated

to

advancing

agriculture

through

technology.

Whether

you're

a

farmer

looking

for

the

latest

in

crop

monitoring

tools,

an

investor

seeking

promising

ag

tech

startups,

or

a

researcher

interested

in

sustainable

farming

practices,

the

AgTech

Companies

Directory

is

designed

to

cater

to

your

specific

needs.

You

can

filter

by

sector,

technology,

size

or

locations

to

find

exactly

what

you're

looking

for.

Claim

your

company

listing

today

to

be

featured

alongside

the

most

cutting

edge

technologies

in

the

world

of

AgTech.

Visit

agtechcompanies.com

to

learn

more

and

set

up

your

profile.

That's

agtechcompanies.com

just

to

give

you

a

perspective.

You

need

120,000

flowers

growing

to

create

2

pounds

or

a

kilo

of

dry

saffron.

That's

a

lot

of

space.

That's

a

lot

of

flowers

so,

Michael.

Oster,

CEO

of

Saffron

Tech,

thank

you

so

much

for

joining

me

on

the

Vertical

Farming

podcast.

Thank

you

for

having

me.

Where

are

you

calling

in

from?

I'm

calling

in

from

Israel.

It's

8pm

here,

8pm

and

it's

noon

where

I'm

at.

So

I

think

that's

the

beauty

of

post

Covid.

Now

everyone's

used

to

dealing

with

remote

video

recording

and

Zoom

probably

helped

make

a

lot

of

that

possible.

So

it's

not

as

strange

as

it

used

to

be.

100%

between

Zoom

teams,

Google

Meets,

we

sort

of

the

only

struggle

we

have

is

which

one

to

choose.

So

I

like

to

start

these

conversations

off

on

a

high

note.

What's

the

best

thing

that's

happened

to

you

this

week?

Best

thing

that's

happened

to

me

this

week

is

that

my

daughter.

So

we

live

in

Israel

now,

but

returned

to

Israel

after

22

years

in

Dallas,

Texas.

So

I'm

the

same

time

zone

I

was

on

the

same

time

zone

you

were

at.

And

this

week

my

daughter,

who's

studying

in

UMD

University

of

Maryland,

came

to

join

us

for

the

summer.

So.

Okay,

that's

the

best

thing

that

happened

to

me

this

week.

How

was

your

time

in

the

States?

Amazing.

I

was

an

expat

for

a

oil

and

gas

company

that

was

acquired

22,

23

years

ago.

Joined

them,

spent

15

years

with

them

and

another

seven

years

doing

other

stuff,

mainly

real

estate,

a

little

bit

of

energy

related

projects,

but

they

were

some

of

the

22

best

years

of

my

life.

And

anything

you

missed?

My

kids

were

born

there,

so

anything.

You

missed

from

the

States,

number

one.

If

you

ask

my

wife,

she'll

answer

differently.

But

my

number

one

is

Amazon

Prime.

We

got

real

spoiled.

And

DFW

has

a

very

good

logistics

center.

So

the

average,

I

wouldn't

say

the

average

time

is

six

hours,

but

good

deliveries,

that's

one

thing.

And

no,

we

happen

to

be

big

cheerleaders

of

Texas.

It's

Lone

Star

State.

Love

the

structure

there,

love

the

people

there.

It

was

good,

a

good

time,

but

it

was

time

for

us

to

go

back

home.

Yeah.

You

were

born

and

raised

in

Israel.

Born

and

raised

in

Israel

to

British

immigrants.

That's

where

some

of

my

accent

comes

from.

Okay.

In

fact,

they

think

I

have

an

American

accent

in

their

eyes.

But

no,

they

immigrated

to

Israel

60

years

ago

and.

Wow.

Or

59

years

ago.

Okay.

I

was

born

in

Israel

and

raised

here

and

became

a

lawyer.

And

one

of

my

clients.

This

is

how

we

go

to

Dallas.

One

of

my

clients

acquired

a

refining,

oil

and

gas

company

headquartered

in

Dallas.

Okay.

So

let's

talk

a

little

bit

about

how

you

ended

up

in

farming

company

prior

to

getting

started.

What

had

you

been

working

on

prior

to

starting

Saffron

Tech?

So

I

have

a

small

real

estate

business

in

the

US

partner

and

I

own

some

multifamily.

We

have

a

little

bit

of.

I

have

a

little

bit

of

an

energy

consulting

arm

following

my

15

years

with

an

oil

and

gas

company

and

a

lot

of

executive

type

experience.

So

mainly

management,

anywhere

from

M

and

A

activity

to

CEO

of

certain

companies.

That's

my

history.

And

about

a

year,

just

over

a

year

ago

or

maybe,

yeah,

February

of

last

year,

when

my

wife

and

I

decided

that

we're

going

back

to

Israel

but

didn't

make

the

move

yet,

I

was

restarting

my

connections

in

Israel.

And

the

founder

of

Saffron

Tech

happens

to

be

a

business

colleague

and

a

friend.

And

he

asked

me

if

I

would

join

the

board

of

Saffron

Tech,

which

I

did

at

the

time.

And

then

eight

months

later,

when

we

were

actually

here

and

given

the

direction

he

wants

Saffron

Tech

to

go

in,

which

is

continue

the

R

and

D,

but

in

parallel

become

a

commercially

viable

company,

he

asked

me

if

I

would

consider

being

CEO,

becoming

CEO,

which

I

gladly

took.

So

it's

my

first

Israeli

project.

Talk

to

me

a

little

bit

about

when

you

came

on

as

a

board

member.

Is

this

a

role

you've

held

in

the

past?

I'm

always

curious

because

we're

in

the

process

of

building

one

ourselves

and

how

you

see

that

responsibility

as

a

board

member,

how

involved

you

are

when

you're

a

board

member

based

on

your

past

experience,

if

that's

different

than

this

one.

So

it's

interesting,

board

members

vary

from,

and

I'm

saying

sort

of

like

as

someone

who

was

an

executive

in

a

large

public

company

and

we

had

board

members

and

as

someone

who

is

a

board

member

on

a

couple

of

companies

now,

board

members

sort

of

vary

from

very,

very

active.

And

that's

usually

sort

of

the

ones

that

are

sort

of

more

involved

on

the

financial

aspect

of

the

company

or

the

growth

aspects

of

the

company,

depending

on

what

type

of

type

company

it

is,

et

cetera.

Yeah.

And

assuming

they

have

the

prerequisites

for

it

or.

And

again,

it

depends

on

the

size

of

the

company.

But

generally

speaking,

when

you

think

what

a

board

member

is,

they're

supposed

to

strategically

drive

the

company

and

help

the

CEO

execute

the

business

plan.

So

yeah,

if

it's

creating

the

business

plan,

they're

helpful

in

that.

And

if

it's

driving

the

strategy

or

the

execution

of

the

business

plan,

then

obviously

helping

in

that

and

Then

there's

always

board

members

that

are

there

because

they

have

extremely

good

connections

but

are

not

necessarily

active.

So,

yeah,

you

know,

one

connection

that

they

do

is

worth

millions

for

the

company,

and

that's

great.

And

then

there's,

you

know,

depends

on

the

situation.

But

there's

board

members

that

are

not

very

active.

I

joined

Saffron

Tech

at

a

stage

where.

And

we

could

talk

about

the

company,

of

course,

but

I

don't

know

if

you

have

our

website

and

any

of

that.

But

I

joined

Saffron

Tech

when

it

was

sort

of

deep

in

the

R

and

D

stage

and

wanting

to

go

commercial,

but

afraid

to

go

commercial.

So

a

little

bit

of

guidance

there,

I

think,

on

my

end.

And

now,

again,

when

I'm

here,

the

help

I

get

from

my

board

is

either

connections

or

consulting

on

sort

of

the

larger

transactions

we're

about

to

enter

into

or

fundraising

or

whatever

the

case

may

be.

Obviously,

you

don't

want

to.

A,

you

don't

want

to

make

decisions

by

yourself.

It's

irresponsible

as

CEO,

I'm

saying.

And

B,

you

want

to

sort

of

bounce

things

off.

Forget

the

irresponsible

part

of

it.

From

a

point

of

view

of

really

a

sounding

board,

a

help

that

you

can

get.

My

chairman

is

helping

me

now

with

a

potential

large

commercial

transaction

that

we're

about

to

do

in

Morocco.

These

are

things

that

sort

of

people

from

the

relevant

worlds

can

be

helpful,

and

that's

what

board's

about,

in

my

opinion.

When

you

first

joined

as

Saffron's

board

member,

was

that

your

first

introduction

to

the

world

of

Saffron

and

controlled

environment,

agriculture,

indoor

farm.

Correct.

100%.

Like,

I

had

no

clue.

And

I.

You

spoke

to

me

about

oil

and

gas,

and

even

there,

you

speak

to

me

more

about

the

downstream

rather

than

the

sort

of

the

exploration,

the

upstream.

About

oil

and

gas,

I'm

okay.

You

speak

to

me

about

M

and

A

of

any

type.

Deal?

Any

type.

Large

transactions,

public

companies,

private

companies,

you

know,

mergers,

acquisitions,

stuff

like

that.

Yeah,

no

problem.

You

speak

to

me

about

real

estate

over

the

last

seven

years

also.

No

problem.

Even

that.

Okay.

Depending

on.

Depends.

Everything's

niches.

Agriculture?

No.

Vertical

farming.

Certainly

not

startup

with

a

vertical

farming.

No.

And

Saffron?

No

idea.

Yeah.

So

what

did

you

see

in

those

early

days

when

you

came

on

as

a

board

member?

How

much

of

it

was

a

learning

curve

to

understand

what

was

happening?

Because

you

had

to

understand,

obviously,

the

business

model

to

see

if

that

had

viability,

but

then

also

understanding

the

business

and

the

industry

itself.

Correct.

So

it

takes

time.

The

more

you

get

fed

with

data

points

that

you

can

learn

the

better.

But

at

the

end

of

the

day,

you

got

to

sort

of

hone

in

to

why

you're

doing

this

or

why

does

the

company

exist,

why

does

the

company

think

it's

going

to

do

well?

And

I'll

touch

the

specifics

just

in

context

of

Saffron,

but

sort

of

the

first

question

you

ask

yourself

is,

okay,

vertical

farming,

we've

had

many

ventures

come

and

go

because

they

failed,

whether

on

energy

cost,

whether

on

market

entry,

rather

a

million

reasons

why.

And

it

took

me

a

while

to

understand.

But.

And

then,

so

what's

different

about

Saffron?

And

sort

of.

So

the

first

thing

you

find

out

is

that

Saffron

is

basically,

it

is

the

most

expensive

spice

in

the

world.

It's

called

the

red

gold.

Its

price

varies

from,

I

don't

know,

$500

a

pound

on

the

very,

very

cheap

end

to

$40,000

a

pound

on

the

very

expensive

end.

So

it's

a

gig.

And

it

a

lot

of

it

depends

on

quality,

origin,

time

of

purchase

versus

growing

in

the

field,

et

cetera.

But

it

is

definitely

not

a

commodity

in

the

normal

sense

of

when

you

talk

about

things

like

that.

And

then,

okay,

so

that's

point

number

one.

Point

number

two

is

what

are

the

potential

applications?

So

again,

and

that's

a

general

theme,

I

think,

or

something

you

need

to

check

when

you're

looking

into

a

startup

or

looking

into

a

business

or

looking

to

acquire

a

business.

So

what

are

the

potential

applications?

So

now

again,

specifically

on

Saffron,

everybody

knows

it

as

sort

of

the

expensive

spice,

but

some

who

know

a

little

more

have

seen

the

medicinal

value

of

Saffron.

So

anti

anywhere

from

antidepressant

to

anti

ADHD

to

anti

aging

in

a

way

to

antioxidant

if

it's

applied

as

a

cosmetics.

But

food

supplements

has

now,

in

my

opinion,

in

a

slow

way

so

far,

but

has

started

to

erupt.

And

you

go

into

pretty

much

any

vitamin

store

or

anywhere

you

can

buy

food

supplements.

And

now

there

are

many

food

supplements

that

are

saffron

based

or

saffron

extract.

So

it's

definitely

entered

into

that

world.

Our

vision

is

to

go

one

step

further,

which

will

take

time.

Clinical

trials,

fda,

all

the

nine,

all

the.

When

it

comes

to

going

into

the

pure

pharma

world,

in

other

words,

if

we

can

find

ourselves

five

years

from

now,

seven

years

from

now,

six

years

from

now,

replacing,

you

know,

Ritalin

or

Ciprolex

or

any

of

those

types

of

medicine

that

work

on

the

same

parts

of

the

brain

that

help

but

without

the

chemicals

in

them

more

the

natural

way

Then

you

know,

it's

a

huge

win

for

mankind.

So

I

think

like

in

everything

else,

you

need

a

very,

very.

On

the

one

hand

you

need

a

clear

vision

and

a

clear

business

plan

for

the

next

five

years,

which

I

think

we

do.

But

on

the,

on

that's

on

the

one

hand

and

on

the

other

hand

you

have

to

have

that

achievable

dream.

And

then

when

you

have

the

combination

of

those

things,

then

suddenly,

and

I'll

go

back

to

the

question

that

you

asked

me

before,

you

know,

suddenly

the

vertical

farming

put

aside.

Okay.

The

vertical

farming

as

a

whole

and

the

potential

risk

rewards

there,

whether

it's

cannabis,

whether

it's

green

leaves,

whether

all

that.

It's

a

whole

different

picture

when

it

comes

to

saffron.

Yeah,

because

of

the

potential,

because

of

the

high,

not

high

yield

from

a

point

of

view

is,

I

mean

we

spend

a

lot

of

money

to

create

1

kilo

or

2

pounds

of

saffron.

Just

to

give

you

a

perspective,

you

need

a

hundred

and

twenty

thousand

flowers

growing

to

create

two

pounds

or

a

kilo

of

dry

saffron.

That's

a

lot

of

space,

that's

a

lot

of

flowers.

So

it

has

to

have

that

upside.

And

I

believe

that

in

our

case

it

has

that

upside.

In

other

words,

we're

going

to

be

producing

or

we

are

producing

on

a

very

small

scale

right

now

because

we

have

a

pilot

plant

in

here

in

Israel.

But

we

are

producing

the

highest

quality

of

saffron

if

you

compare

it

to

sort

of

the

different

bands.

And

right

now

saffron

is

examined

on

an

EZO

basis.

That's

the

testing

and

ours

is

in

all

categories

of

the

active

ingredients.

And

I

won't

bore

you

with

the

details

but

it's

crocin,

procrocine,

saffron.

In

all

those

categories

we're

producing

a

higher

quality

than

the

EO

one,

than

the

top

notch

saffron.

So

then

when

it

comes

to

that,

then

again

using

the

fundamentals

going

back,

you

know,

any

type

of

business

at

the

end

of

the

day,

you

know,

it's

the

capex

you

need

to

invest,

it's

the

opex,

the

sustaining

of

the

business,

what

it

means

and

all

that,

that's

all

very

important.

And

it

has

to

at

the

end

of

the

day

give

you

a

good

ROI

or

a

good

return

on

your

investment.

And

that

happens

either

if

your

costs

are

very

low

or

if

your

value

is

very

high.

Product

that

you're

selling

is

high

value.

So

that's

how

we

approached

it.

And

yeah,

that's

what

I've

learned

along

the

last

six

years.

Thanks

for

that

overview

that

was

extremely

helpful.

What

I

find

interesting

also

is

that

you've

got

this

background

in

MN

in

running

businesses

and

having

a

lot

of

exposure

to

probably

seeing

what's

worked

and

what

doesn't,

seeing

failures

of

businesses.

I'm

curious,

from

your

perspective

and

your

experience,

where

do

you

see

companies

that

are

similar

to

Saffron

Tech,

you

know,

that

are

getting

started

with

a

product

or

with

an

idea,

where

do

you

see

that

they

stumble

and

they

fail

and

they

end

up

not

having

to

deliver

on

what

their

promise

is

based

on

your

experience.

So

I

don't

think,

I

mean,

I'm

not

a

startup

expert

by

any

means.

You've

heard

that

through

my

resume.

But

even

in

my

old

world,

when

you

check

something

in

a

lab,

okay,

whatever

that

is,

diamond,

and

I

don't

mean

check

the

lab,

the

quality,

I

mean

when

you

test

something

out,

synthetic

diamond,

producing

a

new

type

of

gasoline

in

our

refinery

at

the

time,

checking

out

a

new

process

because

we

think

it

gives

you

more

yield.

And

in

our

case,

when

we

are

producing

this

on

a

R

and

D

scale

first.

So

it's

basically

a

lab

size,

little

sort

of

compartment

or

in

controlled

environment

rooms,

going

on

to

a

pilot

scale

like

we

have,

which

again

is

sort

of

like

I

would

say

it's

about

100

of

a

size

of

a

decent

sized

commercial

scale.

So

100,

that's

the

pilot.

What

people

fail

on,

to

answer

your

question,

is

the

scale

up.

In

other

words,

if

everything

is

fine,

you

assume

that

scale

up

is

going

to

be

a

copy

paste,

just

multiplication.

It's

wrong

on

an,

on

a

capex

basis.

It's

wrong

on

a

yield

basis,

it's

wrong

on

an

OPEX

basis.

And

when

I

say

wrong,

by

the

way,

you

can

be

surprised

sometimes

to

the

positive

but

many

times

to

the

negative.

And

your

picking

robot

is

not

doing

the

same

job

when

it

comes

to

the

mass.

And

when

it

comes

to,

when

you

put

more,

using

my

example

again,

more

plants

into

the

same

square

footage.

So

the

idea,

or

to

avoid

that,

you

gotta

take

leaps.

But

you

can't

take

too

big

of

leaps.

Therefore,

you

know,

somebody

could

have

said

and

I'm.

And

somebody

can

say

the

opposite

of

what

I'm

about

to

say.

Now

I'll

tell

you

what

I

mean.

Somebody

would

say

when

you're

done

with

R

and

D,

go

ahead,

just

build

a

commercial

plant.

Well,

I

can

tell

you

that's

a

mistake.

Of

course

you

have

to

build

a

pilot.

I

am

saying

now

I'm.

We're

raising

money

now

for

building

our

first

commercial

plant.

And

somebody

else

will

say,

no,

you

should

still

do

Forget

the

R

D

side

but

somebody

else

will

say

well

when

you

go

to

commercial

you

should

assume

a

degradation

of

A,

B

and

C

and

you

should

assume

diseases

in

your

plants

that

you

haven't

assumed

before.

There's

always

something

to

be

said

to

taking

the

leap

of

faith

or

not

taking

the

leap

of

faith.

That

was

a

long

way

of

answering

your

question.

When

somebody

takes

that

leap

of

faith

without

enough

basis

data,

that's

when

they

fail

or

when

they're

hyper

focused

on

just

getting

a

product

out

but

without

understanding

the

business

value

of

it.

I

mean

you

can

create,

you

can

do

vertical

growing.

I'm

using

lettuce,

happens

to

be

something

that

works

in

certain

places.

You

can

do

vertical

growing

of

lettuce

but

the

end

product

is

not

worth

enough

to

be

to

justify

the

capex

then

it

won't

work.

So

that's

sort

of

the

in

a

nutshell

where

using

still

ag

but

you

could

do

that

on

anything.

That

in

a

nutshell

is

sort

of

a

fundamental

issue

that

any

startup

comes

into.

It

seems

like

I

sense

your

enthusiasm

when

you

talk

about

these

issues

and

how

you

like

working

through

these

problems

and

figuring

this

stuff

out.

Has

this

always

been

a

passion

for

you

like

understanding

business

and

understanding

what

works,

what

doesn't

and

figuring

out

and

getting

in

there

and

you

know,

rolling

up

your

sleeves

and

seeing

how

you

can

make

businesses.

So

the

answer

is

yes

and

no.

The

answer

is

yes.

I

always

liked

to

get

dirty

where

I

could

in

whatever

it

was

I

was

doing.

But

it's

very

different

in

each

type

of

business

that

you

go

into.

So

to

me

now

basically

sorry

for

the.

These

are

types

of

noises

that

I'm.

Sorry

I

have

a.

Yeah

no

worries.

Child

who

doesn't

care

for.

That's

real

life

though.

The

what?

That's

real

life.

That's

real

life.

Oh

it's

real.

Where

were

we

Train

thought

just

your.

How

you

come

across

like

you're

basically

your

passion

for

this,

you

know.

Yeah.

So

I've

always

had

the

thrive

the

drive

to

fix

issues

that

come

my

way.

Okay.

But

what

I

think

is

the

most

intriguing

part

for

me

now

is

to

yeah

you

know

it's

very

easy

to

fall

in

love

with

something

which

I

have

fallen

in

love

with

this

concept,

with

this

company,

with

this

technology,

with

the

growth

protocol

that

we've

created

with

not

becoming

too

political.

But

90%

of

saffron

in

the

world

is

produced

by

Iran

so

you

can

go

into

geopolitical

aspects

and

it's

probably

the

number

two

after

oil

wherever

their

funds

go

to

that's

from

Saffron.

So

you

Know,

as

an

Israeli,

I

have

sort

of

an

interest

to.

To

fight

it.

So

there's

obviously

that.

But

yeah,

depending

on

where

you

are,

the

obstacles

can

be

tremendous.

And

the

obstacle,

all

the

obstacles

could

be

relatively

easy.

They.

When

you

talk

about

a

business

like

ours

building

the

first

facility,

it

requires

planning,

it

requires

engineering,

it

requires

getting

bids

on

the,

on

everything

that

you

need

and

obviously

all

that.

But

it

also

requires

on

the

other

side,

the

ability

to

do

extracts

so

we

can

go

into

the

nutraceutical

world,

the

ability

to

have

an

offtake

agreement.

If

you

don't

have

a

good

offtake

agreement

for

the

product

that

you're

producing

than

the

financial

model

that

you're

building.

I

mean,

there's

a

term

that

we

use

that

Excel

can

take

anything

you

can

put

in

whatever

number

you

want

into

an

Excel,

it

will

do

the

calculation,

it

will

give

you

your

IRR

and

what

you

need,

but

at

the

end

of

the

day,

you

also

need

to

perform.

So

we're

going

through

a

rigorous

process

of

sort

of,

you

know,

not

just

dreaming,

but

finding

justifications.

Now,

that

doesn't

mean

you're

not

betting

here.

We

are

betting.

We

are

betting

that

it

will

work

80%

of

what

we're

planning.

We're

betting

that

the

pricing

will

be.

We

think

it's

very

conservative.

We're

betting

on.

We're

betting

on

off

takers.

We're

betting

on

the.

What

I

told

you

before

about

the

yield

of

the

flower

and

the

ability

to

sell

it.

And

so

there's

a

lot

of

moving

parts

and

we,

there's

things

that

we're

focusing

on,

like

I

told

you

now,

which

is

the

commercial

plant.

There's

things

that

we've

put

on

a

little

bit

of

a

side

burner,

which

is

what

I

was

telling

you

about,

the

pharma

side.

In

other

words,

tissue

culture

and

other

stuff,

agronomy

and

chemistry

and

stuff

like

that,

that

we're

putting

sort

of

on

a

slower

level

right

now,

and

we'll

expand

it

again

once

we

go

commercial

because

A,

our

state

of

mind

will

be

such,

B,

will

have

the

product

that

the

fundamental

Saffron

that

will

be

able

to.

That

will

enable

us

if

you

will

do

all

these

clinical

trials

and

stuff

like

that.

So

it's

really

knowing

how

to

balance

between,

you

know,

the

real

challenges

that

you

have

for

this

step

of

the

game

and

the

potential

challenges

you'll

have

later

down

the

road.

That

makes

a

lot

of

sense.

I'm

curious,

Michael.

With

your

experience,

obviously

you've

had

wins

and

maybe

even

some

losses

through

your

experiences

over

the

years,

and

obviously

you

learned

from

Those

and

learned

what

not

to

do

and

what

doesn't

work.

Without

getting

into

specifics,

is

there

a

story

that

comes

to

mind

from

something

that

maybe

didn't

turn

out

the

way

you

planned

but

turned

out

to

be

a

valuable

lesson?

The

end

of

the

day,

not

in

the

Saffron

world,

but

a

year

and

a

half

ago,

we,

my

partner

and

I

wanted

to

do

a

logistics

project

in

the

outskirts

of

Austin,

Texas.

Okay.

And

it

was

a

grounds

up

and

we.

There

were

too

many

obstacles.

The

interest

rate

were

going

up,

it

was

not

double

digits

for

construction

loans,

but

it

was

pretty

high.

The

fear

of

the

equity,

both

ours

and

our

investors

to

go

into

something

like

that.

So

we

worked

hard

for

four

months

doing

feasibility

studies,

doing

analysis,

justifying

it

makes

sense,

it's

good.

The

market

is

just

outside

Austin.

Booming

market.

Austin,

Tex.

Booming

market.

Makes

sense.

And

we

ended

up

not

doing

the

project.

The

war

in

Israel

broke

out,

so

a

big

part

of

us

sort

of

mentally

wasn't

focused.

We

ended

up

not

closing

that

deal

and

it

was

very

disappointing.

And

hindsight,

I

do

not

regret

not

doing

it.

And

for

a

different

reason.

I

mean

not

for

different

reason,

but

for

the

fears

we

had.

In

other

words,

the

six

month

delay

in

the

execution

of

the

project

could

have

caused

us

complete

turmoil,

doubling

the

need

to

inject

the

equity

because

the

banks

today

are

less

patient

or

six

months

ago,

which

would

be

six

months

later

on

the

project

were

less

patient.

They

wouldn't

have

necessarily

extended

us

more

time.

I've

seen

it

in

my

old

world,

in

the

multifamily

world

on

a

regular

basis

where

people

took

bridge

loans

at

4

and

a

half

percent

which

was

low,

and

then

they

found

themselves,

you

know,

18

months

later

needing

to

do

a

recap

at

a

much

lower

valuation.

So

that

was

an

example,

that's

the

most

recent

example

of

something

that

I

was

disappointed

and

hand

side

happy

that

I

failed

or

didn't

do.

Lesson

learned.

Right.

So

I

figure,

or

I'm

wondering

if

over

the

years,

you

know,

we

talk

about

the

importance

of

getting

the

numbers

in

the

spreadsheet

too,

but

how

much

of

this,

as

you

start

to

have

experience,

decades

of

experience,

do

you

start

to

develop

like

an

intuition,

you

know,

because

sometimes

it's

not

all

black

and

white.

Right?

Correct.

So

I

would

say

that,

you

know,

the

number

one,

first

of

all,

how

do

you

do

it?

You

basically

put

in

sort

of

downside

case

protections.

Okay.

So

you

create

a.

If

you

have

a

model

that

has.

I've

learned

in

life

that

a

capex

project

takes

and

it

depends

in

what

world.

Right.

But

a.

Generally

speaking,

if

you're

getting

from

your

contractor,

from

your

subcontractors,

from

your

developer,

from

your,

whatever

it

is,

from

the

authorities,

you're

getting

an

idea

of

time.

You

should

add

30%

to

that

time.

Okay.

If

you're

getting

a

budget

and

if

that

budget

has

a,

I

don't

know,

a

10%

contingency,

you

better

put

another

20.

Now

the

reason

I'm

saying

that

is

I'm

not

saying

all

projects

come

in

over

budget

and

over

time,

but

a

lot

of

them

do.

And

the

ones

that

don't

come

in

the,

the

ones

that

come

in

within

budget,

within,

within

the

time

frame

that

you

did,

you're

going

to

get

a

better

return

on.

And

that's

great.

So

the

projects

that

come

in

under

budget

and

in

the

time

that

you

planned

and

that

are

producing

the

same

type

of

income

that

you

plan,

you're

going

to

surprise

yourself,

your

investors

and

all

great.

The

problem

is

that

if

you

add

too

many

safety

nets

or

too

many

conservative

assumptions,

kind

of

lose

the

financial

feasibility.

So

it's

got

to

be

a.

So

to

answer

your

question,

the

truth

is

somewhere

in

the

middle,

the

more

the

plan

is

defined,

using

capex

as

an

example,

if

you're

getting

an

offer,

which

is

what's

called

a

plus

minus

30,

you

should

assume

a

plus

30.

If

you're

getting

a

project

that

is

plus

minus

10,

you

should

assume

maybe

plus

10

or

plus

15.

It's

all

in

the

accuracy

of

what

you're

doing.

The

same

applies

with

using

the

example

I

gave

before.

I'm

gonna

build

my

first

plant

of

saffron

production.

I'm

gonna

have

offtake

agreements

for

30%,

50%,

as

much

as

I

can

get

before

I

even

erect

it.

It's

almost

like

any

other

project.

If

you

can

get

somebody

to

buy

the

product

from

you

or

the

facility

from

you

or

whatever

it

is

that

you

are

selling,

or

if

you're

exploring

oil,

the

oil,

the

more

you

can

get

sort

of

on

the

buy

end

to

start

with,

the

safer

you

are

to

get

to

your

goals.

That

makes

a

lot

of

sense.

And

I

imagine

over

the

years

you

get

better

at

refining

that

and

having,

you

know,

looking

at

those

numbers

and

having

almost

like

a

gut

check

to

understand

based

on

past

experiences,

how

much

you

got

to

work

with

those

numbers

to

get

to

where

you

want

to

be

correct.

I

don't

think

you

can

get

to

a

zero

mistake,

but

I

think

the

smarter

people

and

the

more

experienced

people

narrow

those

mistakes

and

sort

of

can

afford

to

eliminate

the

dreams

that

are

not

either

achievable

or

very

low

chance

of

achievability.

Look

we're

in

a

business.

You

using

my

business.

We're

in

a

business

that

has

high

risk

by

design.

The

technology,

the

growth

protocol.

In

our

case,

there's

risks

inherent

in

the

execution.

Okay.

The

last

thing

you

want

to

do

is

add

to

that

with

bullish

assumptions.

So

now

you're

just

layering

on

the

failure

points.

So

we

try

to

sort

of

minimize

them

in

a

way

that,

you

know,

yeah,

we'll

have

room

for

some

failure

and

still

be

very

successful.

That

makes

a

lot

of

sense.

That's

a

very

smart

approach.

So

when

you

decided

to

move

from

a

board

member

to

CEO,

is

this

something

challenge

that

you

like,

this

leadership

role

as

CEO

and

all

the

different

hats

you

have

to

wear

in

that

position?

Yeah,

it

was

a

combination,

I'll

be

very

honest.

I

arrived

in

Israel,

I

have

my

business

in

the

us

but

became

a

little

more

passive

there,

so

I

had

some

free

time

on

my

hand.

The

founder

basically

came

to

me

with

a

challenge

of,

you

know,

let's

go

commercial,

which

the

prior

CEO,

who

was

very,

very

talented

in

the

development

of

the

technology

and

bringing

the

protocol

to

where

it

is

and

proving

the

concept

in

many

ways

that

wasn't

her

passion,

to

go

commercial,

if

you

will.

Also

we

have

the

potential

of

going

public

and

other

stuff

that

sort

of

again,

was

a

little

less

appealing

to

her

type

of

experience

and

more

appealing

to

mine.

So,

yeah,

I

dove

in

with

a

lot

of

ambition

and

I'm

still

here

and

I'm

still

ambitious

and

I'm

even

more

excited

than

I

was

three

months

ago,

two

months

ago

and

one

month

ago.

How

big

is

the

team?

We're

small.

We're

very

small

on

a

intake,

on

an

inherent

team

with

four,

including

me,

the

chief

agronomist,

the

engineer

and

the

ops

guy.

And

we

have

a

CFO

which

is

part

time,

so

call

it

CFO

controller

type

deal.

But

remember,

we're

not

commercial

yet.

We're

still

sort

of

at

the

startup

phase.

We

have

advisors

from

the

top

agricultural

institution

in

Israel

called

Volcani.

We

have

an

advisor

from

Valencia,

Spain.

Also

on

the

agronomy

slash

extract

side,

we

have

an

engineering

firm

that

is

helping

us

with

a

detailed

design

of

the

plant.

So

we

have.

But

if

you're

asking

me

about

our

core,

it's.

It

reminds

me

of

the

days

where

I

was

working

with

these

private

equity

firms

and

you

know,

private

Equity

that's

running

a

3,

4,

5

billion

dollars

assets

under

management

and

they

have

six

people.

Yeah,

it's

within.

But

we

have

a

lot

of

good

help

from

the

relevant

people.

How

would

you

describe

your

leadership

style?

I

Try

to

lead

by

example,

in

other

words,

I'll

give

you

an

example

we

had.

So

part

of

being

four

people

is

that

when

it

comes

to

planting

season,

quote,

unquote,

we

get

some

help

because

it's

still.

It's

thousands

of

these

bulbs

that

you

need

to

plant.

But

the

process,

because

it's

a

pilot

plant,

then

the

process

of

the

planting

is

not

automated,

although

we

have

sort

of

together

the

prototype

of

how

that

would

be

auto

automated.

But

we.

Somebody's

got

to

plant

these

bulbs.

And

last

Sunday

we

did

a

little

batch

and

I

was

there

together

with

the

agronomist,

who

also

shouldn't

be

spending

all

day

planting.

He

should

be

checking,

and

the

engineer.

And

we

all

did

it.

So

that's

sort

of

one

part

of

leadership.

I

think

the

other

part

of

leadership

is

finding

questioning

processes.

Questioning,

but

in

a

way

that

is

intriguing,

not

in

a

way

that

is

depressing.

In

other

words,

I'll

give

you

a

live

example.

We

use

good

amount

of

energy,

and

for

that

we

use

a

good

amount

of

LEDs

that,

you

know,

give

the

photosynthesis

to

the

flower,

but

at

the

same

time

create

some

heat.

LEDs,

despite

what

you

and

I

sort

of

think

before

this

call,

LEDs

produce

heat.

Now,

the

percentage

is

much

lower

than

the

old

lights

that

we

used

to

use.

And

the

efficiency,

if

you

will,

is

higher,

but

it's

still

there.

And

there

are

ways,

there's

no

doubt

in

my

mind.

And

we've

started

testing

now

with

pulsing

and

stuff

like

that.

There

are

ways

to

improve

that

because

at

the

end

of

the

day,

every

sort

of,

you

know,

1%

reduction

in

operating

expenses

is

going

to

increase

my

bottom

line

by

twice

that.

So

that's

sort

of

the

types

of.

Those

are

the

two

again,

getting

dirty,

I

think

is

also

helpful

with

understanding

the

business.

It

creates

a

feeling

of

camaraderie

between

you

and

your

peers

and

your

employees

and

everybody.

And

it