June 6, 2025
165: Glenn Behrman - Unmasking Hype, The Real Economics of Indoor Farming
Vertical Farming PodcastGlenn Behrman, a seasoned entrepreneur with over 50 years of experience in horticulture and business, shares his journey from a successful foliage distribution business in New York to becoming a pioneer in indoor farming. After selling his initial business and spending years in Asia, Behrman became intrigued by vertical farming in 2010, which led him to explore container farming and develop innovative agricultural solutions. His background in business and keen observation skills helped him navigate the complex and often overhyped world of indoor agriculture.
Throughout the conversation, Behrman provides critical insights into the indoor farming industry, emphasizing the importance of a business-first approach and realistic expectations. He criticizes the industry's tendency to rely on social media hype, easy venture capital, and unrealistic promises, pointing out that many companies are essentially just websites with flashy marketing. Behrman stresses that success in indoor farming requires thorough economic analysis, understanding market demand, and being willing to customize solutions to specific needs rather than pursuing a one-size-fits-all strategy.
Behrman's advice for aspiring indoor farmers is grounded in practicality and integrity. He recommends that entrepreneurs first ask themselves why they are entering the industry, warning against pursuing it solely for financial gain. His personal philosophy centers on building a sustainable business that one can enjoy, maintaining honesty, and being willing to turn down projects that don't make economic sense. Drawing from his extensive experience, he highlights the challenges of container farming, the limitations of current technologies, and the importance of collaboration with experts across different disciplines.
Indoor farming requires a rigorous business-first approach, with careful economic analysis and realistic expectations about profitability and market demand
The biggest challenge in vertical farming has been easy money and hype from venture capital and social media, which often created unrealistic expectations about the industry's potential
Container farming has significant limitations, particularly for shallow-root crops, and is not a universal solution for agricultural production
Success in indoor farming depends on understanding specific market needs, customization, and solving unique agricultural challenges rather than pursuing a one-size-fits-all approach
The industry needs more honest conversations about the true economics of controlled environment agriculture, focusing on building sustainable businesses rather than chasing rapid growth
Many indoor farming companies are more about marketing and websites than actual viable agricultural solutions, with approximately 30% being essentially 'just a website'
Entrepreneurs should critically examine their motivations, prioritizing building a meaningful business they enjoy over quick financial gains
Collaboration between technical experts, plant scientists, and agricultural innovators is crucial for developing practical and effective indoor farming solutions
"I have a life that people only dream about. I've had the highest highs and the lowest lows, but I just kept on putting one foot in front of the other." - Glenn Behrman
- This quote captures Glenn Behrman's resilient life philosophy and reflects his journey through various business challenges and personal transformations.
"It's all a giant spreadsheet. Every facet of this industry is an Excel spreadsheet. On the left hand side you put all of the different exigencies. And then you have to make adjustments along the right hand side to get to that sweet spot." - Glenn Behrman
- This quote succinctly describes Behrman's pragmatic, business-driven approach to indoor farming, emphasizing the importance of careful economic analysis.
"If somebody decides to go into this business, I think the first thing they need to do is go sit in a room by yourself and ask yourself, why am I doing this? If your response is for the money, don't do it. This is not a throw the money in and take the money to the bank. It just doesn't work that way." - Glenn Behrman
- This quote provides critical advice for entrepreneurs, emphasizing the need for genuine passion and purpose beyond financial gain.
"I think that 30% or maybe even higher, I think that 30% of the businesses or the companies in this industry are nothing more than a website." - Glenn Behrman
- This provocative quote critiques the superficiality of many indoor farming startups, highlighting the gap between marketing and substantive business operations.
"The biggest enemy of vertical farming was a very easy money. Silicon Valley and social media, I think that if left unchecked, they'll destroy this industry." - Glenn Behrman
- This quote offers a scathing critique of how hype and easy investment can negatively impact emerging industries like vertical farming.
Chapter 1: From Foliage to Future: Glenn Behrman's Entrepreneurial Journey
Glenn Behrman shares his remarkable life story, tracing his path from a challenging childhood to becoming a successful entrepreneur in the foliage industry and eventually transitioning into indoor farming. He describes overcoming personal struggles, building a multimillion-dollar business, and his journey of personal growth and transformation.
- Personal challenges can be overcome through determination and hard work.
- Entrepreneurial success is often rooted in resilience and continuous learning.
Key Quotes
Chapter 2: The Early Days of Indoor Farming: Pioneering and Exploration
Glenn discusses his initial exploration of indoor farming, including his travels to Amsterdam to meet with Plant Lab and his early investigations into vertical farming technologies. He describes his curiosity-driven approach to learning about the emerging field and his initial investments in container farming research.
- Successful entrepreneurs are willing to explore new technologies and industries.
- Technical expertise in one field does not automatically translate to another industry.
Key Quotes
"I had no idea what I was doing, Harry. Okay. I mean, you know, I didn't have any. Although I had probably bought and sold and, you know, was involved with maybe a couple of hundred million dollars worth of foliage material, but I had no idea what it meant to be a grower." by Glenn Behrman
- This quote highlights his humility and willingness to learn in a new industry
Chapter 3: The Business of Indoor Farming: Economic Realities and Challenges
Glenn provides a candid assessment of the indoor farming industry, critiquing the hype cycles, unrealistic expectations, and economic challenges faced by vertical farming ventures. He emphasizes the importance of thorough economic analysis and a pragmatic business approach.
- Economic viability should be the primary consideration in indoor farming ventures.
- Easy money and social media hype can be detrimental to sustainable business development.
Key Quotes
"It's all a giant spreadsheet. Every facet of this industry is an Excel spreadsheet. On the left hand side, you put all of the different exigencies. And then you have to make adjustments along the right hand side to get to that sweet spot." by Glenn Behrman
- This quote perfectly encapsulates his analytical approach to evaluating indoor farming ventures
Chapter 4: Integrity and Wisdom: Lessons from an Industry Veteran
Glenn reflects on the importance of honesty, integrity, and maintaining a genuine approach to business. He shares insights about the industry's challenges, the value of networking, and the need for realistic expectations in indoor farming.
- Success in indoor farming requires more than just financial motivation.
- Personal integrity and genuine passion are crucial for sustainable business growth.
Key Quotes
Note: This transcript was automatically generated using speech recognition technology. While we will make minor corrections on request, transcriptions do not currently go through a full human review process. We apologize for any errors in the automated transcript.
Even
me.
I
mean,
I,
you
know,
I
should
have
some
allegiance
to
my
industry,
but
I
buy
Texas
grown
three
in
a
bag
Romaine.
But
you
see,
when
I
go
into
the
supermarket
and
I
go
to
the
supermarket
in
every
country,
everywhere
in
the
world,
as
soon
as
I
get
to
where
I'm
going,
one
of
my
first
stops
is
always
the
supermarket
and
looking
at
the
produce
aisle
just
to
see
who's
who
and
what's
what
and
the
pricing
and
the
quality
and
the,
you
know,
just
to
get
a
feel
for
that
market.
But
that
visual
is
also
an
indicator
of
the
success
of
the
people
in
that
market.
Welcome
to
the
Vertical
Farming
Podcast.
Weekly
conversations
with
fascinating
CEOs,
founders
and
ad
tech
visionaries
join
us
every
week
as
we
dive
deep
into
the
world
of
vertical
farming
with
your
host,
Jo
Harry
Duran.
Vertical
Farming
podcast
season
12.
Regular
listeners
to
the
show.
Welcome
back.
Thank
you
for
all
you
do
to
support
this
show.
Whether
it's
on
socials,
YouTube,
Apple,
Spotify,
LinkedIn,
anything
you've
been
doing
to
mention
this
show,
an
episode
that
you
loved,
whether
it's
a
recent
one
or
one
from
the
back
catalog,
everything
you
do,
I
really
appreciate
it.
Thank
you
for
helping
to
grow
this
and
get
the
word
out
about
what
we're
doing
here.
If
this
is
your
first
time
listening,
I'm
positive
you're
in
the
right
place
because
it's
the
show
where
we
interview
fascinating
CEOs
and
founders
of
the
leading
vertical
farming
companies
from
around
the
world.
I'm
your
host,
Harry
Duran,
co
founder
of
the
AgTech
Media
Group,
founder
of
Full
Cast,
our
full
service
podcast
agency
and
podcaster
since
2014
with
my
first
show,
Podcast
Junkies.
In
case
you
missed
last
episode,
great
conversation
with
Michael
Ulster.
He's
the
CEO
of
Saffron
Tech
and
he
took
us
into
the
world
of
vertical
farming
and
the
potential
of
saffron
as
a
high
value
crop.
Michael's
journey
from
oil
and
gas
to
ag
is
a
testament
to
the
power
of
embracing
new
challenges
and
opportunities.
In
that
episode,
we
dove
into
the
intricacies
of
saffron
production
and
Michael
shared
valuable
insights
on
scaling
up
from
R
and
D
to
commercial
operations.
We
explored
the
unique
challenges
he's
exploring
and
how
he's
balancing
ambition
with
realistic
expectations.
We
also
talk
about
the
potential
applications
of
saffron
beyond
its
use
as
a
spice.
Michael
has
a
ton
of
experience
in
business
management
and
M
and
A
and
he
brought
a
fresh
perspective
to
the
actech
space.
This
is
a
very,
very
actionable
episode,
so
please
check
it
out
this
week.
I'm
so
happy
to
finally
get
on
the
show.
Glenn
Berman.
We've
been
running
into
each
other
at
various
conferences.
I
knew
from
the
moment
we
met
that
I
wanted
to
have
him
on
the
show.
He's
the
founder
and
president
of
CEA
Advisors
and
he
is
a
seasoned
expert
in
indoor
farming
with
over
50
years
of
experience.
Wow.
Glen's
journey
from
a
successful
foliage
distribution
business
in
New
York
to
pioneering
indoor
farming
solutions
is
nothing
short
of
remarkable.
As
you'll
hear
in
this
episode,
he
has
a
no
nonsense
approach
and
a
wealth
of
knowledge
and
provides
a
much
needed
reality
check
for
indoor
farming.
In
this
episode,
Glenn
shares
valuable
insights
on
the
challenges
and
opportunities
in
indoor
farming,
and
he
emphasizes
the
importance
of
a
business
first
mindset.
We
discussed
the
impact
of
easy
money
on
the
industry,
the
limitations
of
container
farming,
and
the
need
for
realistic
expectations.
Glenn
provides
candid
observations
on
recent
industry
failures
and
his
advice
for
aspiring
entrepreneurs
are
both
sobering
and
inspiring.
This
episode's
a
breath
of
fresh
air,
so
if
you're
looking
for
an
honest,
unfiltered
perspective
on
the
state
of
indoor
farming
from
someone
who's
seen
it
all,
you're
going
to
love
this
episode.
Here
are
five
takeaways
I
want
you
to
listen
out
for.
Number
one
Thoroughly
analyze
the
economics
before
entering
the
indoor
farming
industry.
As
Glenn
emphasizes,
it's
all
a
giant
spreadsheet.
Carefully
consider
all
costs,
market
demand
and
potential
revenue
streams.
2.
Focus
on
building
a
sustainable
business
rather
than
chasing
hype
or
easy
money.
Glenn
advises
asking
yourself,
why
am
I
doing
this?
And
only
proceeding
if
the
answer
is
to
build
a
nice
business
that
you
can
enjoy.
Love
that.
3.
Be
open
to
customized
solutions
rather
than
one
size
fits
all
approaches.
Glenn
has
found
success
by
tailoring
container
farm
designs
to
specific
client
needs
and
research
applications.
4.
Network
and
learn
from
experts
across
disciplines.
Glenn
highlights
the
value
of
collaborating
with
plant
scientists,
engineers
and
other
specialists
to
develop
innovative
solutions
and
five
and
probably
most
importantly
of
all,
maintain
integrity
and
be
willing
to
tell
hard
truths,
even
if
it
means
turning
down
business.
Glenn
stresses
the
importance
of
being
able
to
look
in
the
mirror
and
like
what
you
see.
I'm
telling
you,
this
is
going
to.
Be
a
really
great
interview
and
I'm
so
excited
to
share
it
with
you.
If
you
love
this
episode
or
any
past
episodes,
please
share
it
with
a
friend.
It's
one
of
the
best
ways
to.
Grow
the
show
and
if
you're
feeling
extra
generous,
head
on
over
to
verticalfarmingpodcast.com
love
and
leave
us
a
rating
and
a
review
and
we'll
be
sure
to
read
it
out
on
a
future
episode.
Tons
of
great
content
in
this
episode.
Just
focus
on
the
conversation.
You
can
always
visit
verticalfarmingpodcast.com
as
a
follow
up
to
read
the
full
show
notes
for
each
episode,
which
includes
all.
Guest
links
as
well.
Okay,
before
we
get
into
this
uninterrupted
conversation
with
Glenn,
a
few
words
from
the
amazing
partners
that
we
love
that
support
this
show.
Mark
your
calendars
for
the
CEA
Summit
east
in
Danville,
Virginia
from
September
9th
through
10th,
2025.
This
two
day
event,
co
hosted
by
Indoor
Icon
and
the
Virginia
Tech
IALR
CEA
Innovation
center,
brings
business
and
academia
together
to
help
you
grow
your
business.
Immerse
yourself
in
a
full
lineup
of
research
showcases,
panel
discussions
and
keynotes
featuring
top
experts,
grower
operators
and
other
thought
leaders.
Explore
the
latest
CEA
innovations
from
tabletop
exhibitors
and
enjoy
quality
networking
opportunities
as
well.
Don't
miss
this
unique
opportunity
to
attend
a
conference
at
a
research
facility
where
you
can
get
a
firsthand
look
at
cutting
edge
research
projects
happening
right
now
and
explore
ideas
for
collaboration
with
Virginia
Tech
and
IALR
researchers
as
well.
As
always,
we're
grateful
to
the
CEA
Summit
team
for
providing
podcast
listeners
with
an
additional
20%
off
the
standard
passes
with
promo
code
VFP.
Visit
ceasummit.com
for
more
details
and
to
buy
your
ticket
today.
Indoor
farming
is
evolving
fast
and
the
demand
for
fresh,
local
and
sustainable
produce
is
skyrocketing.
But
what's
really
driving
the
industry
forward?
That's
exactly
what
we
uncover
in
the
2025
Indoor
Farming
Market
Research
Report
authored
by
IGRO
News
editor
Sepper
Ashard
and
woman
in
CEA
founder
Tea
Otto,
this
deep
dive
into
the
state
of
controlled
environment
agriculture
in
the
US
Is
packed
with
the
latest
insights,
market
trends,
investment
outlooks,
game
changing
technologies,
and
the
biggest
opportunities
shaping
the
future
of
food
production.
Did
you
know
that
the
US
indoor
farming
market
is
projected
to
hit
8.6
billion
by
2030?
Or
that
AI
and
automation
are
rapidly
changing
how
we
grow
crops
year
round?
This
report
doesn't
just
highlight
challenges,
it
gives
you
a
roadmap
for
success.
Whether
you're
a
grower,
investor
or
agtech
innovator,
this
is
your
guide
to
staying
ahead.
Download
the
full
report@verticalfarmingpodcast.com
report
don't
just
watch
the
future
of
farming,
be
part
of
it.
That's
verticalfarmingpodcast.com
report
or
click
the
link
in
the
show
Notes.
So
Glenn
Berman,
Founder
and
President
of
CEA
Advisors,
thank
you
so
much
for
joining
me
on
the
Vertical
Farming
podcast.
Thank
you.
Thanks
for
having
me.
Where's.
Where
are
you
calling
in
from?
I
live
outside
of
Dallas.
Okay,
you
born
and
raised
there.
No,
I'm
from
New
York.
Okay.
What
part
of
New
York?
In
New
York
City,
there's
only
one
part
of
New
York,
New
York.
I
grew
up
in
Yonkers
and.
Oh,
okay.
Yeah.
I've
lived
in
East
Village,
Brooklyn,
Upper
east
side.
So
I
consider
myself
definitely
a
New
Yorker.
I
still
have
a
community
garden
that
I
started
in
New
York
20
years,
30
years
ago
in
the
East
Village.
Wow.
On
11th
Street.
Wow.
When's
the
last
time
you've
been
one
of
your.
Yeah.
One
of
the
few
community
gardens
that
remain
in
New
York.
When's
the
last
time
you've
been
down
there?
Oh,
please,
I'm
a
tourist.
I
mean,
the
closest
I've
gotten
to
New
York
is
Kennedy
Airport.
Yeah.
What
do
you
miss
most
about
it?
Everything.
I
miss
the
food,
I
guess.
Yeah.
Yeah,
definitely.
Yeah.
You
miss
certain
things.
I'm
probably
going
to
go
in
July
to
visit
my
folks
in
Yonkers
and
then
try
to
make
a
stop
in
the
city.
But
last
time
I
was
there
was
for
Indoor
Ag
Tech.
The
one.
They
had
it
in
Times
Square.
And
that
was.
Yeah,
I
remember
that.
I
was.
I
think
I
was
there
for
that.
I
stayed
in
a
hotel
right
nearby.
And
I
couldn't
believe
what.
I
couldn't
believe
it.
I
mean,
I
was
flabbergasted
at
what
Times
Square
had
become.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not
in
a
good
way.
No,
Very
Disneyfied.
And
it's
just.
I
remember
taking
the
lift
from
my
friend's
house,
I
was
staying
with
him
on
23rd
street
to
times
Square
every
morning,
and
you
just
look
out
the
window
and
everyone
just
looks
like
ants.
And
no
one's
smiling,
no
one's.
Just
that
energy,
that
frenetic
energy.
I
think
when
you're
younger,
it
sort
of
charges
you
up.
Yeah.
It
is
different.
I
mean,
I
love
living
there,
you
know,
and
I
had
a
very
successful
business
and
very
well
known
business
in
New
York.
So,
you
know,
it
was
interesting.
I
mean,
it
was
an
A
lister.
Yeah.
Okay.
And,
you
know,
growing
up
there
was
pretty
outrageous
during
the.
Just
go.
Yeah.
All
that
kind
of
stuff,
you
know,
so.
But,
you
know,
you
can't
really
ever
go
home
again.
That's
true.
That's
interesting.
Yeah.
That's
always
a
good
perspective
because
you're
trying
to
go
back
to
the
moment
in
time
that
you
remember.
Finished.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So
what
was
the
impetus
to
get
out
of
New
York?
Well,
I
mean,
it's
actually
a
very
interesting
time
in
my
life.
You
know,
I
had
been.
I
started
in
the
foliage
industry
in
1971.
Wow.
And
over
the
next
25
years,
I
built
a
very,
very
big,
very
successful
foliage
distribution
business.
We
were,
you
know,
I
was
one
of
the
pioneers.
And.
And
I,
at
that
time,
at
the,
you
know,
at
the
end
of
the
whole
thing,
I
had
nine
stores.
We
had
a
wholesale
division.
We
were
importing
and
exporting.
You
know,
I
was
a
pioneer
in
that
industry.
Yeah.
And
I
wound
up
selling
the
whole
shooting
match
and
retiring.
1994,
it
was
okay.
And
I
retired,
and
I
found
out
that
I
met
a
guy
and
his
father
who
were
Vietnamese,
and
the
embargo
between
the
U.S.
and
Vietnam
was
lifted
in
1994.
Okay.
So
I
got
on
a
plane
and
I
flew
to
Saigon.
Wow.
And
I
spent
the
next
year
in
Saigon
trying
to
help
them
to
rebuild
the
country.
Wow.
And
to
make
a
long
story
short,
I
wound
up
staying
in
Asia
for
the
next
17
years.
And
in
2000,
I
was
the
CEO
of
a
dot
com
company
in
Asia,
okay.
Called
the
Global
Grocer,
and,
you
know,
raised
a
few
million
dollars,
you
know,
in
the.
At
the
peak
of
that
whole,
you.
Know,
dot
com
craze,
and
wind
up.
Living
in
Thailand,
building
a
farm,
starting
a
big
orchid
exporting
business,
and
stayed
there.
And
then
in
2010,
I
was
on
an
airplane
coming
home
from
China,
and
I
read
about
Plant
Lab
doing
the
first
research
into
indoor
farming.
So
I
flew
home
to
Bangkok.
I
told
my
wife,
I
said,
I'm
going
to
home.
And
I
don't
think
I
was
home
for
a
week.
I
was
in
Amsterdam.
Because
of
my
background,
I
just
kind
of
knew
that
vertical
farming
was
the
future.
And
so
I
went
to
Plant
Lab
and
I
met
with
those
guys,
and
I
tried
to
buy
the
US
rights
to
their
technology.
This
was
2010,
and
I.
I
was
not
able
to
make
a
deal
with
them.
You
know,
they
were
suffering
from
the
delusions
of
grandeur
that
a
lot
of
people
were
suffering
from
in
those
early
days.
Yeah.
But
I
got
home,
you
know,
and
I
wound
up
spending
a
lot
of
time
in
Holland
and
I
met
the
people
from
Phillips,
and
I,
you
know,
did
this
and
did
that
and
went
to
all
the
shows
and,
you
know,
kind
of
got
my
feet
wet
in
a
whole
new
area
of
horticulture
that,
you
know,
with
my
background,
it
was
all
pretty
not.
It
wasn't
simple
and
it
wasn't
obvious,
but
it
was
interesting
and
it
really
made
me
a
lot
more
curious.
And
then
I
read
about
aerophones,
and
I
reached
out
to
the
late
Ed
Hallwood
and
I
sent
him
an
and
I
told
him
who
I
was
and
what
my
interest
was.
And
I
said,
look,
I
would
like
to
learn
more
about
this.
And
I
Spent
the
next
year,
and
it
was
a
12
hour
time
difference
between
Bangkok
and
New
Jersey.
And.
And
I
spent
the
next
year,
it
was
midnight
my
time
and
noon
at
Hallwood
time.
And
we
spent
hours
on
the
phone
just
talking
about
all
this.
Wow.
And
after
about
a
year
of
that,
I
told
my
wife,
I
said,
listen,
we
have
to
go
back
to
America,
do
this.
So
we
flew
back,
we
went
to
Miami.
I
bought
two
used
containers.
I
went
to
a
friend
of
mine
who
had
probably
built
75%
of
the
greenhouses
in
Dade
county.
And
I
told
him
what
I
was
going
to
do.
And
they
had
a
big
metal
working
factory
and
I
designed
the
first
two
retainers.
I
had
no
idea
what
I
was
doing,
Harry.
Okay.
I
mean,
you
know,
I
didn't
have
any.
Although
I
had
probably
bought
and
sold
and,
you
know,
was
involved
with
maybe
a
couple
of
hundred
million
dollars
worth
of
foliage
material,
but
I
had
no
idea
what
it
meant
to
be
a
grower.
And
I
learned
about,
you
know,
air
and
climate
and
LED
lighting
and
irrigation
and
just
all
the,
you
know,
know,
control
systems
and
oh
man,
it
was
an
education
and
burned
up
a
ton
of
money.
Made
every
mistake
that
anybody
could
possibly
make.
And
after
about
three
years,
I
finally
sold
the
first
protainer.
And
I
sold
it
to
a
guy
and
his
wife
who
knew
less
than
I
did.
And
they
were
going
to
grow
lettuce
and
sell
it
and,
you
know,
they
were
going
to
change
the
world
and
they
were
going
to
be
the
growing
population
in
2050
and
they
were
going
to
do
everything
that
you
read
about
all
this
nonsense
every
day.
And
they
failed.
And
I
made
a
vow
that
I
would
never
sell
another
retail
container.
That
I
would
do
nothing
but
build,
you
know,
interesting,
challenging
projects
that
didn't
depend
on
the
sale
of
commodity
crops
and,
you
know,
didn't
sell
to
people
who
knew
less
than
I
did
and
that
I
would
just
concentrate
on.
I
would
surround
myself
with
people,
you
know,
to
fill
in
the
blanks
that
I
had.
Yeah.
Were
rapidly
disappearing
because
I
was
like
a
sponge
and,
you
know,
I
decided
to
just
stick
with
my
peers.
And
that's
what
I've
done
for
the
past
15
years.
What
a
fantastic
journey
you've
been
on
since
those
early
days
in
New
York.
You're
unbelievable.
I
mean,
I
have
a
life
that
people
only
dream
about.
Yeah,
life
that
people
only
dream
about.
You
know,
I've
had
the
highest
highs
and
the
lowest
lows,
but
I
just
kept
on
putting
one
foot
in
front
of
the
other.
Yeah.
So
I'm
just
fascinated
to
hear
like,
you
know,
with
your
perspective
and
having
seen
this,
you
Know,
from
its
infancy
and
realizing
early
on
what
the.
The
value
was
in
indoor
farming.
But
having
had
your
experiences,
you
know,
decades
before,
I'm
curious
about
your
perspective
now
because
I
entered
it
in
2020,
which
is
basically
the
peak
of
the
hype
cycle,
or
one
of
the
hype
cycles,
and
obviously
tons
of
money
coming
in
and
lots
of
folks
ending
up
bankrupt
afterwards.
So
how
do
you
see
things
and
how
do
you
see
the
cycle?
It's
been
talked
about
a
lot
at
some
of
the
conferences
we've
been
at
recently.
But
I
get
the
sense
that
you
provide
some
bit
of
realism
for
folks,
you
know,
having
been
there
and
done
that.
When
it
comes
to,
like,
expectations
and
where
you
see
things
going
for
this.
Industry,
I've
always
had
a
realistic
attitude
about
it.
And,
you
know,
it's
funny
because
15
years
ago
when
I
made
certain
comments,
I
was
an
asshole,
okay?
And
now
I'm
a
guru,
you
know,
because,
listen,
I've
always
been
a
businessman,
you
know,
and
I've
always
had
a
cash
flow,
positive
attitude.
And
I've
always,
from
day
one,
been
sinkless
with
them.
You
know,
nobody
ever
gave
me
anything.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Whatever
I've
ever
done,
you
know,
if
I
made
money,
it
was
my
money,
and
if
I
lost
money,
it
was
my
money.
Yeah.
And,
you
know,
I
started
off
the
same
as
everybody.
You
know,
I
thought
that
indoor
farming
was
going
to
change
the
world.
And
again,
I
thought
that,
yeah,
you
know,
we're
going
to
be.
The
population
is
going
to
grow
and
we're
going
to
have
to,
you
know,
find
ways
to.
To
feed
those
people.
And
I
thought
that
nonprofits
and
NGOs,
and,
you
know,
every.
You
know,
I
had
this
interesting
kind
of
a
shotgun
approach
early
on.
You
know,
I
was
willing
to
try
anything.
I
didn't
know
what
was
right,
you
know,
but
I
knew
that
container
farming
or
indoor
farming
had
a
place.
I
just
didn't
know
what
that
place
was,
you
know,
and
we
still
don't
know
what
that
place
is.
Okay.
And
it's,
you
know,
15
years
later.
But,
you
know,
I
tried
each
thing
and
I
learned
step
by
step
that,
you
know,
it's
a
business
just
like
any
other
business.
It's
not
easy.
You
know,
there's
a
lot
of.
A
lot
of
dreamers,
you
know,
when
there
was
easy
money.
And,
you
know,
I
think
that
the
biggest
enemy
of
vertical
falling
was
a
very
easy
money.
Yeah.
Silicone
Valley
and
social
media,
Okay.
I
think
that
if
left
unchecks,
they'll
destroy
this
industry,
you
know,
but
at
the
same
time,
I
think
that
people
learn
the
social
media
lesson
through
Freight
Farm,
because
they
spent
10,000amonth
to
create
a
community
that
was
really
just
a
way
of
holding
their
buyers
hostage.
And
when
it
collapsed,
you
know
what
I
mean,
Hundreds
of
people
were
left
holding
the
bag.
And
I
think
that,
you
know,
it
started
off
with
good
intentions,
and
I
think
it
went
to
the
toilet.
You
know,
I
think
that
the
promises
that
they
made
to
people
and
the
way
they
went
about
it,
you
know
what
I
mean,
Psychologically,
was
perfect.
Yeah.
But
from
a.
From
having
a
conscience
and
from
a
integrity
standpoint,
it
was
disgusting.
So
do
you
think,
Glenda,
you
mentioned
that.
It's
just
interesting
that
you
mentioned
the
social
media.
So
is
it
this
perspective
of
like
telling
a
story
that
looks
good
on
paper
or
it's
flashy,
but
it's
really
not
really
what's
happening
behind
closed
doors?
Yeah,
absolutely.
I
think
that
30%
or
maybe
even
higher,
I
think
that
30%
of
the
businesses
or
the
companies
in
this
industry
are
nothing
more
than
a
website.
That
it's
just
some
guy
sitting
in
a
room,
you
know
what
I
mean?
With
a
flashy
website.
Yeah.
You
know,
it's
like
when
I
was
young
and
somebody
went
into
business,
the
first
thing
they
did
was
have
business
cards
made
up.
Yep.
Remember
that?
Okay.
The
first
thing
you
did.
Okay.
You
know,
you
had
the
idea.
You
went
straight
to
the
printer
and
had
a
business
card
made.
Okay.
Today,
when
you
have
an
idea,
the
first
thing
you
do
is
go
to
the
web
designer.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
And
if
you
like
me
and
you
read
the
headline
and
then
you
decide
that.
That
it's
time
to
do
a
little
research,
then
you
start
to
read
where
they
say,
we're
going
to
do
this,
we're
planning
to
do
that.
We're
thinking
about
becoming
the
number
one
this
and
the
top
that,
and
we're
a
thought
leader
and
we're.
And
all
this
buzzword
bullshit,
and
it's,
you
know,
it's
just
like,
you
know,
it's
just
an
evolution.
In
other
words,
it's
the.
It's
like
all
potatoes,
no
meat.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
it's
just
the
2025
version,
you
know
what
I
mean?
Of,
you
know,
it's.
Listen,
everybody
has
ideas.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Listen,
I
have
10
ideas
a
day.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Same.
But
I
discard,
you
know,
I
think
about
them
and
I
discard
today's
10,
and
I
deal
with
tomorrow's
tent,
you
know,
but
it's
just
not
real,
you
know,
I
mean,
listen,
you're
better
off,
you
know,
what's
wrong
with
having
a
nice
business
that
you
Enjoy.
That's
small.
That
you
make
a
good
living.
That,
you
know,
you
have
a
smile
on
your
face.
And,
you
know,
I
remember
when
I
was
in
the
foliage
business
and
I
was
making
a
fortune.
Harry,
I'm
talking
about
it,
you
know,
40
years
ago,
making
serious
moment.
Okay?
And
I
remember,
you
know,
I
lived
in
a
beautiful
home.
I
drove
a
brand
new
Mercedes.
I
traveled
all
over
the
world.
I
did
whatever
I
wanted
to
do.
And
I
had
all
my
friends,
they
were
in
the
garment
center,
they
were
doctors,
they
were
lawyers,
they
wore
a
suit
and
tie,
you
know
what
I
mean?
They
were
dentists,
you
know.
And
me,
I
wore,
you
know,
Bruno
Magli
shoes
and
jeans
and
a
hoodie,
you
know
what
I
mean?
And
I
was
making
a
fortune.
Yeah.
And,
you
know,
I
laughed
at
all,
you
know
what
I
mean?
Because
I
had
this
unbelievable
business
that,
you
know,
I
mean,
I
spent
a
week,
every
three
weeks
traveling
through
Homestead,
Florida,
buying
plants.
I
mean,
think
about
it
for
a
minute.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
You
know,
the
sun
is
shining,
the
birds
are
singing,
you
know
what
I
mean?
Every
day.
Yeah.
It's
hot.
It's
beautiful.
You
know,
involved
with
farmers,
you
know
what
I
mean?
And
people
of
the
land,
you
know,
everybody
with
mud
on
their
boots
and
dirt
under
their
nails.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
And,
you
know,
sit
down
and
have
a
cold
drink,
you
know,
under
the
palm
trees
or
under
the
lime
or
mangoes
or
avocados.
Yeah.
You
know,
it
was
the
greatest
life
in
the
world,
you
know,
And.
And,
you
know,
I
mean,
people,
you
know,
they
all
want
to
be
flashy
and
have,
you
know,
valuations.
When
I
was
in
business,
there
was
no
such
thing
as
valuation.
You
know,
you
worked
your
ass
off
and
you
made
a
good
living.
It's
either
profitable
or
it's
not.
Yeah,
right.
You
either
profitable,
you
work
for
someone
else.
Yeah.
So
how
did
you
get.
Very
simple.
How
did
you
get
into
foliage?
It's
a
long
story.
Listen,
I
mean,
you
know,
I
don't
tell
my.
I
came
from
a
very,
very,
very
rough,
dysfunctional
childhood.
There
was
drugs
involved,
there
was.
I
had
all
kinds
of
problems.
Okay.
You
know,
if
you
would
have
looked
at
me
then,
you
know
what
I
mean?
Even
myself.
Okay.
You
know,
I
can't
imagine
what
I.
How
I've
turned
my
life
around,
you
know?
And
I
mean,
I
had
everything
going
against
everything,
and
I
had
no
money.
I
mean,
I
was
a
classic.
You
know,
you
could
make
a
movie
out
of
my
life,
how
bad
it
was,
and
I
just
decided
one
day
to
sell
plants.
I
mean,
that
simple.
You
know,
I
just
saw
this
indoor
plant
boom
coming.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
I
borrowed
$5,000
and
opened
the
store
in
New
Haven,
Connecticut,
you
know,
by
Yale
University.
And
like
I
say,
within
the
next
25
years,
you
know
what
I
mean?
I
built
it
into
a
multimillion
dollar
business.
Wow.
But
I
had
everything
going
against
me,
and
I
think
that
all
of
the
energy
that
I.
And
all
of
the
effort
that
I
put
into
just
staying
alive
in
the
early
days,
I
just
put
it
into
business.
Yeah.
And
I
worked
and
I
learned
and
I
asked
questions
and
I
just
put
one
foot
in
front
of
the
other.
I
mean,
now,
in
retrospect,
no,
I've
been.
I'm
sober
for
over
35
years.
Congrats.
Haven't
touched
a
drink,
haven't
had
a
drug,
haven't,
you
know,
done
anything.
And
I've
lived
the
complete
opposite.
And
every
day
I
spend,
I
try
to
make
up
for
the
bad
things
that
I've
done.
So
even
though
I
kind
of
forgive
myself
because
I
had
to
survive.
Yeah,
of
course.
I
just
have
a
different
ethos,
you
know,
I'm
very
focused
on
integrity
and
honesty
and
gratitude.
Yeah,
those
are
important
traits,
for
sure.
Yeah.
And
they're
very
important.
And
they
guide
a
lot
of
my
decisions
and
a
lot
of
my
thinking.
And,
you
know,
and
I
try
to
be
helpful
and
supportive,
and
I'm
not,
you
know,
I'm
full.
I'm
not
empty.
Yeah.
You
know,
so
I
try
to
give
it
away.
So
when
you
started
CEA
Advisors,
what
types
of
folks
were
you
helping
and
what
type
of
problems
were
you
solving
in
the
beginning
that
are.
And
how
are
they
different
than
the
type
of
work
you're
doing
now?
Well,
it's
not
different.
In
other
words,
I
have
a
business
approach
to
indoor
farming,
you
know,
in
other
words,
and
sometimes
my
service
is
just
telling
somebody,
don't
do
it.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Sometimes.
And
I
can
do
that.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
And
I
feel
good
about
it,
you
know,
like,
yeah,
I'm
sorry
that
I
couldn't
make
any
money,
you
know
what
I
mean?
But
I
also
want
to
sleep
good
tonight,
you
know,
and,
you
know,
I've
been
involved
in
a
lot
of.
I've
helped
a
lot
of
people
in
the
industry,
you
know,
some
I've
gotten
paid
from
and
some
I
just
did
it
because
it
was
the
right
thing
to
do.
Yeah.
We
build
containers.
We.
I've
been
able
to.
To
take
all
of
the
experiences
and
all
of
the,
you
know,
different
lessons
that
I've
learned
in
life,
you
know,
and
put
them
into
a
business
kind
of
a
context,
you
Know,
and,
and
I
bring
a
lot
to
the
table.
You
know,
I
have
a
really,
really
good
read
on
things.
You
know,
when
most
people
see
the
headline,
you
know,
that's
what
they
digest.
And
when
I
see
the
headline,
that's
the
beginning
of
my
research
to
find
out
what's
really
going
on.
Dig
deeper.
Yeah,
much
deeper.
You
know
what
I
mean?
And
you
know,
it's
like
before
I
talk
to
somebody
on
the
phone
or
you
know,
before
I
talk
to
a
client,
I
try
to
find
out
who
they
are
and
you
know
what
I
mean?
You
know,
what
can
I
really
bring
to
the
table?
Yeah,
so
I
see
things
very
clearly.
I
mean,
but
really
clearly.
You
know,
sometimes
I
even
surprise
myself
because,
you
know,
I
get
it.
But
then
something
happens
to
confirm
that.
Yeah,
I
really
do
get
it,
you
know,
and
you
know,
look,
I
think
it's
a
great
business
and
I
think
there's
some
really
good
people
in
this
industry.
And
I
think
that,
you
know,
there's
a
little
too
much
gullibility,
you
know,
and
a
little
bit
too
much,
you
know,
people
that
are
impressed
with
themselves,
you
know,
And
I
think
it's
a
tough
balance,
you
know
what
I
mean?
You
know,
and
I
think
that
it's
just,
you
know,
look,
remember
something,
you're
mainly
dealing
with
commodity
crops.
Yeah.
Dealing
with,
you
know,
high
volume,
low
margin.
People
don't
realize
that
this
is
a
very,
very
relationship
based
business,
you
know,
and
the
established
leafy
greens
producers,
if
they
see
a
vertical
farm
operator,
and
I'm
talking
about
a
vertical
farm
operator,
I'm
not
talking
about
a
greenhouse
operator.
Greenhouse
is
a
greenhouse.
Sure,
sure.
Okay.
Although
now
all
of
a
sudden,
greenhouses
are
high
tech.
We
can
hybrid.
Hybrid,
yeah.
That's
a
whole
other
story.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Greenhouses
are
greenhouses.
Yeah,
but
you
know,
I
think
that
the
established
California
and
Arizona,
you
know,
leafy
greens
producers,
if
they
felt
that
indoor
farming
was
a
threat,
they
would
crush
them.
Okay.
You
know
what
would
it
stop?
Somebody
from
California
with
a
hundred
thousand
acres
from,
you
know,
going
to
Publix
and
putting
romaine
up
for
99
cents
for
a
week?
Yeah,
yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Yeah.
You
know,
let's
face
it.
So
obviously,
although
it
is
a
category,
you
know
what
I
mean,
it's
still
not,
you
know,
a
high
enough
production
percentage
in
the
produce
aisle
to
really
mean
anything.
So
what
is
that?
Just
a
perspective
that
needs
to
change?
Is
it
consumers
awareness
and
education
about
the
difference
in
the
products
or
you
feel
like
it's
just
always
going
to
be
two
different
camps
and
the
people
who
know,
know
and
Appreciate
it.
Yeah.
I
think
it's,
you
know,
in
other
words,
listen,
you
know,
I
wouldn't
pay
extra
for
organic.
I
wouldn't
pay
extra
volatile.
Yeah.
You
know,
I
mean,
you
know,
even
me,
I
mean,
you
know,
I
should
have
some
allegiance
to
my
industry,
but
I
buy
Texas
grown
three
in
a
bag.
Romaine.
Yeah.
I
mean,
you
know,
when
I.
But
you
see,
when
I
go
into
the
supermarket
and
I
go
to
the
supermarket
in
every
country,
everywhere
in
the
world,
as
soon
as
I
get
to
where
I'm
going,
one
of
my
first
stops
is
always
the
supermarket
and
looking
at
the
produce
aisle
just
to
see
who's
who
and
what's
what
and
the
pricing
and
the
quality
and
the,
you
know,
just
to
get
a
feel
for
that
market.
But
that
visual
is
also
an
indicator
of
the
success
of
the
people
in
that
market.
Okay.
You
know,
I
remember
when
I
looked
at
the
Agricole
in
France,
was
it
in
Monopri?
I
didn't
say
Bon
Marche,
but
it
wasn't.
It
was
in
Monopri
and
in
a
supermarket
chain
there
and
they
had
the
little
half
ounce,
you
know,
herbs.
Prepackaged
herbs.
Yeah.
And
each
item
there
was
like
12
packages,
none
missing.
Yeah,
okay.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
they
had
like,
you
know,
12
heads
of
their
lettuce
and
maybe
one
was
missing
from
the
display.
Yeah.
And
a
month
later
they
were
bankrupt.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
it's
the
same
thing
with
color
and
it's
the
same
thing
with
every
one
of
them.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Listen,
as
much
as
I
love
Gotham
Greens,
all
their
products
were
in
the
Kroger
near
me
and
their
prices
were
all
reduced.
Yeah,
yeah,
that's
not
a
good
thing.
You
know,
those
that
are
turning
the
statistics,
you
know,
that
I
pay
attention.
That
makes
sense.
Yeah.
And
so
how
do
you
think
about
this?
You
know,
if
they're.
If
someone
is
consulting
you
and
let's
stick
with
leafy
greens.
They're
looking
to
get
in
this
business.
Obviously
they've
seen
the
graveyard
of
companies
that
have
tried
and
failed.
Is
there
a
model
that
works
or
is
there
something
like
that
hasn't
been
thought
through
enough
yet
to
how
this
could
make
some
get
some
traction?
Harry,
it's
all
a
giant
spreadsheet,
okay?
Every
facet
of
this
industry
is
an
Excel
spreadsheet.
Yeah.
Okay.
On
the
left
hand
side,
you
put
all
of
the
different
exigencies,
okay.
Whether
it,
you
know,
price,
climate
or,
you
know
what
I
mean,
whatever
issues
are,
you
know,
market
share,
et
cetera,
et
cetera.
Okay.
And
then
you
have
to
make
adjustments
along
the
right
hand
side
to
get
to
that
sweet
spot.
Yeah.
Okay.
Energy
cost,
labor,
you
know,
sophistication
of
the
market.
What
are
the
people
eat.
I
mean,
you
know,
is
there
any
demand
there?
Yeah.
You
know,
it's
a
whole
equation,
you
know
what
I
mean,
that
consists
of
a
lot
of
different
things.
But,
you
know,
the
truth
of
the
matter
is
that
this
whole
industry,
in
other
words,
on
the
table
is
not
a
straight
line.
No.
You
understand,
there's
50
different
stops
along
that
way
that
can
be
improved
on
or
where
there's
areas
for
expertise.
You
know,
in
other
words,
if
somebody
decides
they
want
to
get
involved
with
indoor
farming,
they
don't
have
to
be
a
grower.
They
could
design
control
systems.
They
could,
you
know,
get
interested
in
irrigation,
they
could
get
interested
in
packaging.
They
could,
you
know
what
I
mean?
In
other
words.
But
people
don't
really.
They
don't
analyze
the
whole.
They
don't
see
the
whole
picture.
Yeah,
yeah.
You
know,
so
when
you.
With
the
work
you've
done
with
grow
tainer,
how
has
that
container
shipping
container
business
evolved
over
the
years?
And
what
are
people
looking
for
now
and
how
are
you
helping
them?
Well,
you
know.
Right.
I'm
going
through
the
same.
Well,
let
me
say
this.
The
past
15
years,
I,
as
I
said
earlier,
I
sold
one
retail
container.
I
vowed
to
never
sell
another
one.
Yeah.
Okay.
I
built
a
very
successful,
very
healthy
business
doing
commercial
container
installations
for
my
industry
peers.
Okay.
I
built
for
Driscoll,
I
built
for
beneficial
insectary,
I
built
for
ball
horticulture,
you
know,
but
not
for
production,
for
research
for
some
sort.
I've
been
able
to
give
them
what
they
need
to
solve
a
specific
problem.
Okay,
okay.
Or
to
increase
their
business
or
to
do
something
to
help
their
core
competency.
Yeah,
okay.
Why?
Because
I
understand
their
business
and
I
understand
mine
and
I
know
what
I
could
do
for
them.
And
I
know
what
I
tell
them
I
can't
do.
Yeah,
okay.
And
if
I
don't
know,
I
know
who
to
call.
Yeah,
okay.
But
you
know,
I'm
at
a
point
right
now
where
with
this
great
phone
demise
and
understand
something.
I
offer
a
product
that
I
can't
sell,
I
have
to
wait
for
somebody
to
come
to
me
to
buy
it,
you
understand?
A
custom
container.
I
can't
call
somebody
and
say,
hey,
do
you
need
this?
Do
you
need
that?
You
know
what
I
mean?
You
know,
I
would
be
nothing
but
on
the
phone
all
day.
Sure.
You
know
what
I
mean?
I
have
to
wait
for
somebody
to
say,
oh,
I
need
to
try
this.
Maybe
I'll
try
a
container.
And
they'll
get
on
the
phone
with
me
and
we'll
talk
about
it,
and
if
it
makes
sense,
we'll
move
forward,
you
know,
and
I
got
a
lot
of
really,
really
interesting
projects
in
the
hopper,
you
know,
but
right
now,
with
the
demise
of
great
farms,
you
know,
I
wonder
if
I
want
to
get
into
retail,
you
know
what
I
mean?
And
I
think
about
it,
you
know
what
I
mean?
And
I
think
to
myself,
I
don't
necessarily
agree
with
that
style
of
growing.
Yeah.
And
I
don't
know
if
people
will
limit
it
because,
I
mean,
I've
never
agreed
with
it.
Okay.
I
think
plants
are,
you
know,
crops
are
made
to
grow,
you
know,
on
a
flat
surface.
You
know,
I've
never.
I.
I
think
if
God
wanted
them
to
grow
sideways,
no
plant
agriculture
for
the
past
thousand
years
would
have
been
different.
Okay?
So
I've
never
really
seen
that,
to
tell
you
the
truth.
And
I
don't
know
why
people
want
it,
except
maybe
because
it
was
out
there
from
somebody
who
made
a
lot
of
noise,
who
used
social
media.
Yeah,
sure.
Who.
Who
created
this,
you
know,
this
method
of
growing.
Yeah.
You
know,
like,
I'll
give
you
an
example.
You
know,
freight
farms
made
a
lot
of
sales
to
schools.
Personally,
I
think
that
was
a
tremendous
disservice.
Okay.
Because
if
you
want
to
teach
kids
how
to
grow,
you
have
to
teach
them
all
different
ways
of
growing
so
they
decide
which
one
is
best
for
them.
Yeah,
that's
a
good
point.
Okay.
And
every
crop
is
different,
you
know
what
I
mean?
And
it's.
If
it's
an
educational
tool.
A
freight
farm
was
not
an
educational
tool.
Okay.
Stephen
Ritz
is
an
educational
tool.
Yeah,
yeah,
for
sure.
You
follow
me?
Yeah.
You
know,
but
these
are
the
kind
of
thoughts
that
go
through
my
head,
you
know
what
I
mean?
But
so
if
we
build
the
schools,
we're
going
to
put
every
different
type
of
group
rolling
method
in
there
so
that
it
can't
get
their
hands
dirty
and
learn
and
say,
okay,
this
is
the
way.
This
is
the
method
for
me.
Yeah.
Okay.
You
know,
so
I
don't
know
how.
In
other
words,
before
freight
forms
who
grew
sideways,
it's
a
couple
of.
Nobody.
Yeah.
You
know,
I
remember
Indoor
Farms
of
America.
Did
you
ever
hear
of
them?
No,
I
hadn't.
No.
They
had
that,
you
know,
sideways
clear
wall
kind
of
deal.
Yeah.
And
they
were
going
to
do
this
and
they
were
going
to
do
that
and
they
were
going
to
change
the
world.
And
all
of
a
sudden
their
website
said,
as
of.
So
as
of
such
and
such
a
date,
we
have
ceased
operation.
You
know,
and
they
talked
bad
about
everyone
else.
And,
you
know,
they
were
in
the
business
for
15
minutes
been
and
gone
in
15
minutes.
And
they
were
industry
experts,
you
know.
So
when
you
go
to
these
conferences
and
we
bumped
into
each
other
at
Indoor
Icon,
which
is
one
of
my
favorites,
what
do
you
look
for
and
what
do
you
see
that's
changing?
My
quick
take
on
it
was
people
are
a
bit
more
realistic
and
sober
about
what's
been
happening
in
the
past
few
years.
I'm
curious
what
your
take
on
is
on
and
what
you
hear
from
these
conversations.
Well,
I
think
that
this
past
two
years,
it's
definitely
settled
down
a
bit.
You
know,
I
think
that
the
lack
of
easy
money
is
a
good
thing.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
you
know,
Harry,
I'll
tell
you
something.
I
have
a
lot
of
conversations
with
a
lot
of
people,
from
business
people
to
academia,
you
know,
all
kinds
of
interesting
people.
And
I
was
talking
to
a
friend
of
mine
who's
a
professor
in
Australia
of
indoor
farming,
and
I
said
to
him,
I
said,
you
know,
now
that
the
dust
has
settled
and
the
VC
model
has
been
proven
not
to
work
in
vertical
farming,
I
said,
the
first
thing
you
should
ask
your
students
is,
why
are
you
here?
Why
are
you
in
this
class?
Because
if
you're
in
it
for
fast
money,
you
know
what
I
mean,
and
all
the
stuff
that
was
two
years
ago
or
five
years
ago,
then
you're
in
the
wrong
class,
you
know.
So
what
I've
heard
is
a
lot
more
optimism,
a
lot
less
hype.
Yeah.
I
think
that
one
of
the
problems
is
that
there's
still
a
whole
group
of
new
world,
like
suppliers
and
vendors
and
people
trying
to
capitalize
on
this
industry
that
have
not
fully
connected
the
dots.
You
know,
they
don't
know
enough
about
the
industry
that
they're
in
to
really
be
as
effective
as
they
could
be.
Yeah.
Or
they're
coming
in
having
maybe
come
at
the
time
when
they
saw
like
the
wave
or
the
bubble
and
trying
to
understand
if
this
was
something
they
could
capitalize
on.
I
think
about
those
students,
if
they
came
in
and
started
studying
this
because
they
saw
the
dollar
signs
in
2020,
they
got
a
big
wake
up
call.
Right.
You
know,
a
couple
years
later.
Yeah.
You
know,
in
other
words,
there's
a
lot
of
like,
you
know,
and
for
me,
you
know,
if
somebody
asks
me,
you
know,
what
about
my
IP
or
what
about
my
product?
You
know,
how
do
you
know?
What
do
you
think
about
it?
Yeah.
You
know,
the
problem
with
me
is
I
give
them
a
completely
honest
answer,
you
know
what
I
mean?
And,
you
know,
I
think
that
people
are
blind,
you
know
what
I
mean?
They
don't
want
to
hear
what,
you
know,
they.
Some
people
don't
really
want
to
hear
the
truth.
Yeah,
yeah,
for
sure.
You
know.
You
know,
I
mean,
listen,
I
got.
Me
personally,
I
got
nothing
invested
in
being
right.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
But
you
asked
me
a
question.
I'm
going
to
give
you
an
honest
answer
and
hope
that
it
helps.
You
know,
I
still
think
with
this
industry
has
got
a
lot
of
growing
up
to
do,
but
I
don't
think
it's
as
out
of
balance
as
it
has
been.
Yeah.
You
know,
so
when
you
have
conversations
with
folks,
are
you
seeing
folks
or
businesses
or
companies
or
even
people,
individuals
that
are
doing
it
right,
that
are
thinking
it
through
the
right
way
and
asking
the
right
questions?
No,
I
think
they're
doing
better
than
they
were.
Okay.
I
mean,
to
be
perfectly
honest
with
you.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
I
think
that,
you
know,
if
somebody
builds
a
product,
you
know,
I
guess,
you
know,
as
I've
watched
the
evolution
of
this
industry,
I've
seen
people
go
into
the
LED
business,
then
the
LED
business
got
too
crowded.
I've
seen
people
go
into
control
system.
Yeah,
Control
systems
got
too
crowded.
Yeah.
Now
the
new
one
is
robotics
and
automation
and
AI.
Yeah.
Okay.
But
the
truth
of
the
matter
is,
is
that
robotics.
Yeah.
I
mean,
it
definitely
serves,
you
know,
it
has
a
place
in
the
industry.
Yeah.
But
it's
not
the
end
all
be
all
automation.
Not
the
end
all
be
all.
You
know,
why
do
you
need
automation,
for
example,
in
a
country
where
somebody
makes,
you
know,
$30
a
day?
Yeah.
So
in
other
words.
But
the
people
that
are
in
automation
think
shit
works
everywhere
and
it
should
apply
at
every
case
and
it
makes
economic
sense
in
every,
you
know,
alliteration.
But
it's
not
true.
I
mean,
it's
that
saying
that
when
all
you
have
is
a
hammer,
everything
looks
like
a
nail.
You
know,
I
mean,
and
it's
sad
because,
you
know,
a
lot
of
these
people
are
nice
people,
they're
smart,
they're,
you
know
what
I
mean?
But
they
just
don't
do
their
homework.
What
I
love
is
that
you
got
your,
you
know,
you
basically
cut
your
chops,
you
know,
just
from
trying
and
failing
and
trying
and
failing
and
succeeding.
And
definitely
the
thick
skin
and
the
ability
to
tell
people
what
they
need
to
hear.
I
mean,
I
hear
that
New
Yorker
come
through
you
loud
and
clear.
And
sometimes
people
are
like,
they
want
to.
They
want
their
ego
stroked
and
they
want
to
hear
what
they
think
is
the
right
thing.
And
it's
sometimes
really
harsh
to
be
told
something
that
you
know
in
your
heart
is
true
and
your
ego
is
not
allowing
you
to,
like,
listen
to
what
this
Person
don't
listen.
That's
exactly
right.
I
mean,
people
don't
listen,
you
know,
I
mean,
they
want
to
hear
what
they
want
to
hear.
Yeah.
You
know,
I
mean,
like,
Bill,
like,
I
mean,
I'm
just
thinking
about
some
specific
instances,
you
know
what
I
mean,
where
people,
you
know,
nice
to
meet
you,
but
we've
heard
so
much
about
you.
What
do
you
think
about
product?
And
I'm
like,
I
think
it's
great,
but.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
It's
not
going
to
wind
up
the
way
you
think
it's
going
to
wind
up,
you
know,
And
I
don't
want
to,
I
don't
want
to
be
arrogant
and
I
don't
want
to
be
obnoxious.
You
know,
it's
like,
it's
like
over
the
past
10
or
15
years,
I've
seen
a
million
of
these
little
desktop
herb
growing
duo.
I
mean,
I've
seen
a
million
of
them,
of
course,
you
know,
and,
you
know,
and
then
you
get
some
guy
calls
me
and
I,
oh,
look
at
this
beautiful
desktop
earth
herb
growing,
you
know,
apparatus
that
I
built.
Yeah.
And
whatever.
And
you're
like,
yeah,
but
a
hundred
of
them
before
you
wind
up
on
the
cloth,
in
the
closet,
on
the
shelf,
you
know,
not
one
has
ever
succeeded.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
even
AeroGarden,
the
one
from.
I
forgot
who
it's
from.
But
even
the
one
that
was
successful
for
a
few
years
is
now
29.99.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Where
it
was
129
99.
Yeah.
You
know,
people
think
that
they
build
a,
you
know,
a
vertical,
you
know,
like
that
fits
in
the
place
where
your
dishwasher
goes.
Yep.
The
appliances.
Yeah.
It's
nonsense.
You
know,
people
are
not
going
to,
you
know,
they're
going
to
go
to
the
supermarket.
Yeah.
No,
and
I
mean,
that
was
a
very
interesting
lesson
for
me.
I
did
the
first
project
for
a
supermarket.
You
know,
we
bought
Groteina
behind
the
supermarket.
Yeah.
And
we
sold
the
material
inside.
And
I,
that
day
I
thought
that
was
it.
I
had
struck
gold,
you
know,
And
I
figured
to
myself,
I'm
going
to
put
a
container
behind
every
supermarket
in
the
country.
Yeah.
I
quickly
found
out
that
out
of
25,000
supermarkets
in
America,
maybe
there
were
500
of
them.
Because
do
what
I
did,
you
know,
and
then
I
found
out
that
out
of
those
500,
maybe
100
had
the
right
access
and
egress
and
six
capabilities
for
it
to
work.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
those
are
the
kind
of
lessons
that
I've
learned.
You
know,
it's,
you
know,
I
mean,
I
don't
know
it
seems
like
everybody,
you
know,
everybody
thinks
this
industry
is
one
size
fits
all.
Yeah.
And
it's
just
not,
you
know
what
I
mean?
You
know,
I
tried
to
position
grow
tainers
and
indoor
farming
for
the
cosmetics
industry.
Turns
out
they
have
no
interest
in
it.
Okay.
You
know,
I
tried,
you
know,
I
thought
I
had
this
brainstorm
to,
to
use
containers
for
disaster.
Really?
Yeah.
Figured,
oh,
I'm
going
to
make
a
fortune,
you
know,
FEMA
will
buy
a
thousand.
Yeah.
No
interest
in
it.
You
know,
I
mean,
I
try
to
approach
some
pharmaceutical
manufacturing,
you
know
what
I
mean?
Because
I
figured
there
was
some
botanical
products
that,
you
know,
like
some
tree
that
grows
in
the
Amazon.
Yeah.
Extracts.
Yeah.
They
have
no
interest
in
it.
You
know
what
I
mean?
It's
like,
yeah,
if
you
build
the
farm
and
you
go
to
the
Amazon
and
you
find
the
tree
and
you
grow
it
and
you
spend
millions
of
dollars
on
testing
and
the
whole,
you
know,
and
then
take
the
results
and
go
to
the
lab
and
say,
okay,
I
have
this
product,
it's
X
dollars
a
ton.
How
many
times
do
you
want?
They're
like,
oh,
fine,
I'll
take
100
ton,
sure.
But
you
got
to
do,
you
got
to
do
the
work,
right?
I'm
not
doing
all
the
work
spending
all
the
money.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
With
something
that
you
might
buy.
Yeah.
You
know,
it
worked
that
way.
So
where
are
you
seeing
the
most
opportunities
now
in
terms
of
like
product,
market
fit,
you
know,
crops,
what's.
Anything
that's
catching
your
eyes?
I
don't
know.
Yeah,
honestly,
I
don't
know.
You
know,
I
mean,
like
I
say
from
my
own
experience,
you
know,
I
mean,
listen,
remember
something,
Harry.
A
grow
tater
or
a
container
farm,
okay.
It's
extremely
limited.
Yeah.
Okay.
You
can
only
grow
a
shallow
root
crop
because
if
you
grow
a
deep
root
crop,
you
lose
the
vertical
economy.
Okay.
If
you
like,
you
take
wasabi
for
example.
Unbelievable
crop.
Unbelievable
crop
with
tremendous
potential
in
a
container.
Tremendous
potential.
Okay.
But
the
best
you're
going
to
do
is
cut
a
three
year
growing
cycle
down
to
about
a
year
or
a
year
and
a
half.
Yeah.
Okay.
You
got
no
income
for
a
year
or
a
year
and
a
half.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Nobody's
going
to
do
it.
Yeah.
You
know,
except
somebody
who's
laser
focused
on
wasabi.
You
know,
we're
doing
projects
for
wasabi
for
research.
Okay.
We're
doing
projects
for
Japan
for
rice,
for
research.
Okay.
You
know,
but
it's
strictly
a
research
project.
You
know,
I
have
people
call
me
every
day
for
containers
for
strawberry.
Yeah.
And
I
told
them
it
can't
make
any
money.
And
they're
all.
But
what
about
Russia
in
the
winter?
Well,
then
go
build
it
in
Russia.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Why?
I
don't
understand.
You
know,
we
go
to
the
supermarket
right
now
we're
paying
for
Driscoll,
beautiful
big
strawberries,
$3
a
pound.
Yeah.
You
know,
which
means
that
the
farmer
is
getting
a
dollar
a
pound.
Yeah.
I
mean,
think
about
it,
you
know
what
I
mean?
So
think
I'm
going
to
build
a
strawberry
container
and
then
when
it
fails,
you're
going
to
blame
me.
No
way.
All
comes
back
to
that
spreadsheet.
Yeah,
it
all
comes
back
to
that
spreadsheet,
you
know,
and
if,
you
know,
I
mean,
but
people,
they.
Oh,
strawberries,
$22
a
pound
in
Stockholm
in
February.
Okay.
But
what
about
July?
Yeah.
You
know,
I
mean,
and
I
don't
know,
I
mean,
people
just
don't
get
it,
you
know,
listen,
I
don't
know,
to
go
back
to
the
whole
core
conversation
here.
I
don't
know,
if
I
build
a
$99,000
freight
bombs
wannabe,
will
it
sell?
That's
the
big
question.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
I
could
do
it
tomorrow.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
And
I
could
spend
10,000amonth
on
advertising
and
do
all
the
same
stuff
that
they
did.
Do
I
really
want
to
do
that?
Does
the
market,
would
the
market
bear
something
like
that?
I
guess
really
is
looking
deep,
you
know,
having
a
close
look
at,
you
know,
why
they
failed.
And
I
think
you
definitely
outlined
some
of
the
key
points,
you
know,
focus
on
selling
something
through
social.
That
wasn't
really
the
true
story.
But
they
also,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
the
economics
of
like,
did
you
have
a
product
that
the
market
wanted?
Clearly
there
was
some
disconnect
there.
And
I
think
those
questions
are
still
being
asked.
You
know,
people,
I
mean,
I
talk
to
people,
operate
freight
farms,
you
know,
and
I
love
the
way
everybody
jumped
in
to
help
them,
you
know,
I
mean,
the
people
in
Canada,
you
know,
that
what
they
don't
tell
you
is
that
the
guys
in
Canada,
their
containers
are
$300,000,
you
know,
I
mean,
but
they're
going
to
support
the
freight
bomb
community.
Yeah.
What
are
they
going
to
do?
You
know
what
I
mean?
You
know,
send
them
a
box
of
Kleenex,
you
know,
I
mean,
you
know,
but
everybody,
oh,
we're
here
to
support
the
freight
forward
community.
What
exactly
are
you
doing?
Yeah,
you
know,
having
somebody,
you
know,
listen
to
you.
Do
you
lament?
You
know,
listen,
I
think
that,
like
I
say,
I
think
the
way
they
went
shallow
was
disgusting.
But
those
are
the
people
that
really
need
the
helping
hand,
you
know
what
I
mean?
The
one
lost
their
deposits.
And
those
are.
These
are,
I
mean,
people
just
getting
started,
you
know,
small
farms
and
probably
putting
their
life
savings
into
trying
this
out
and
then
probably,
you
know,
it's
a
big
hit
for
them.
Yeah.
I
mean,
that's
a
terrible
thing.
You
know
what
I
mean?
That's
a
really
terrible
thing.
You
know,
but
you
know,
the
truth
of
the
matter
is
that
farming
in
a
container
is
a
tough
business,
okay?
It
works,
but
nobody's
going
to
get
rich
at
it.
It's
like,
you
know,
I've
always
said
it,
it's
too
big
for
a
farmer's
market
and
too
small
for
a
supermarket.
Yeah.
Well,
but
the
truth
of
the
matter
is
that,
you
know,
like
people
call
us
for
microgreens
containers.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
I
tell
people,
I
won't
sell
you
a
40
foot
microgreens
container
because
you'll
never
be
able
to
sell
what
you
produce.
Yeah,
I'll
sell
you
a
20
footer,
but
I
won't
sell
you
a
40.
Yeah.
You
know,
we're
doing
very
well
with
tissue
culture
containers.
Okay.
Doing
very
well
with,
you
know,
with,
like
I
say,
some
of
the
custom
projects
that
we're
working
on,
you
know,
and
you
know,
we're
getting
a
lot
of
traction
with
different
government,
you
know,
food
security
based,
you
know,
research
and
you
know,
a
lot
of
interesting
stuff,
you
know,
that.
Listen,
if
I'm
challenged,
I'm
doing
this
for
over
50
years,
okay?
And
I'm
surrounded
by
the
tech.
Top
of
the
line.
Yeah.
And
I
mean
really
knowledgeable,
clever,
smart,
you
know,
that
put
the
pieces
together
and
understand
and
you
know,
and
we're
all
curious,
you
know
what
I
mean?
All,
you
know,
really,
you
know,
we're
geeky
about
this
whole
thing.
So
I
designed
this
really
elaborate.
I'm
doing
a
project,
I'm
not
going
to
say
who
it's
for,
but
I'm
doing
a
project
for
the
largest
potato
grower
in
the
world.
World.
Oh,
wow.
Potatoes.
Yeah.
Okay.
And
so
we
had
a
big
conversation
this
morning
about
humidity,
you
know,
and
about
propagation
and
all
that.
And
I
designed
this
unbelievable
propagation
system
that
nobody's
really
done
because
it
works.
Distributes
the
humidity
evenly
in
a
multi
level
system.
Okay.
This
Israeli
technology.
And
it's
very,
very
cool.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
so
I
had
a
whole
meeting
with
their
plant
science
people
this
morning,
you
know
what
I
mean?
And
you
know,
we're
integrating
VPD
into
the
containers
and
you
know,
we're
doing
some
really
interesting
stuff
for
them,
you
know,
that
and
all
of
us
got
off
the
phone
this
morning
and,
you
know,
and
like,
we
debriefed
afterwards.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We
were
like,
wow,
you
know
what
I
mean?
These
people
are
professional
plant
scientists.
Yeah.
You
know
what
I
mean?
And
we're,
you
know,
builders.
And.
And
you
combine
the
two,
and
then
what
a
great
conversation.
That's
when
it
gets
fun.
Yeah.
And
it
becomes
real
good.
Yeah.
And,
you
know,
and
then,
you
know,
it's
the
easiest
thing
to
say.
I
don't
know,
what
do
you
guys
think?
You
know,
And
I'm
writing
down
everything
they're
saying.
No,
I
should
have
recorded
the
conversation.
Yeah.
But
meanwhile,
between
what
I
figured
out
and
what
they
figured
out
and
what,
you
know
what
I
mean,
we
came
up
with
a
perfect
system
that's,
you
know,
but,
you
know,
the,
you
know,
I
just
don't
know
why
with
freight
farms
or
without
freight
bombs,
why
the
expectations
or
the
potential
of
this
thing
has
changed.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Like
I
said
before,
I
don't
know
if
I
want
to
build
a
vertical,
a
horizontal
system.
You
know
what
I
mean?
I
think
I'm
better
off
to
stay
with
something
that
offers
more
flexibility
and
more,
you
know,
customization,
more
opportunity.
Yeah,
it
sounds
like
the
custom
projects,
like
the
way
you
just
mentioned
with
the
potatoes
is
where,
like,
you
get
to
use
your
brain
power
and
all
your
decades
of
experience
combined
with
new
technologies,
and
now
you're
actually
problem
solving
now.
Yeah,
I
mean,
it's,
you
know,
and
I
call,
you
know,
like
the
technical
support
people
at
one
of
the
component
manufacturers,
and
I'm
like,
well,
look,
this
is
who
I
am.
This
is
what
I
want
to
do.
You
know,
you're
an
expert
on
this
product,
and
what
do
you
think
about
my
idea?
And
they're
like,
wow,
you
know,
I'm
doing
this
for
30
years.
I
never
thought
of
that.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Yeah,
that's
great.
You
know,
you
got
to
bring
in
people
from
different
disciplines
sometimes.
Oh,
yeah.
Sometimes
people,
if
they're
just
in
one
lane,
they
don't
think
outside
their
lane.
And.
Yeah,
really,
I
spend
more
time
thinking
outside
the
body.
Listen,
I'd
like
to
do
a
double
decker
container.
Oh,
yeah.
16
foot.
Yeah.
Take
the
floor
out
and
the
ceiling,
you
know
what
I
mean?
Have
one
16
foot
high
chamber.
Yeah.
No
one's
done
that
yet.
Never.
Huh.
Wonder
what
the
challenges
would
be
around
that.
But
nothing
really.
I
mean,
it's
just.
It's
very
easy
to
engineer
it.
You
know
what
I
mean?
I
mean,
you
could
do
it
and
it
would
be
very
interesting.
But,
you
know,
at
this
point
right
now,
I'M
getting
lazy.
You
know
what
I
mean?
I'm,
you
know,
I
mean,
I'm
just
really
doing
stuff
that
I
enjoy.
That's
great.
And
again,
you
know,
I
turn
away
more
business
than
I
accept,
you
know,
and
I
just,
you
know,
listen,
I
just
want
to
enjoy
it.
Yeah.
You
know,
I
want
to
know
what
I
know.
And
one
of
the
things
that
I'm
learning
is
what
to
stay
away
from.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
it's
interesting,
you
know,
and
I
feel
bad
for
these
people
that
are
struggling,
you
know,
that
they
went
into
it
with
good
intentions.
You
know,
I
mean,
I
hate
to
hear
of
a
guy
who
has
to
sell
Monday
through
Thursday
so
he
pay
people
on
Friday.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You
know,
that's
not
why
you
go
into
business.
You
know,
they've
created
their
own
version
of
the
hamster
wheel.
Yeah.
Really.
I
mean,
it's
a
shame,
you
know,
I
mean,
I
hate
hearing.
Yeah.
You
know,
look,
I
mean,
I
think
that,
I
hate
to
say
it,
but
I
don't
know
if
the
industry
has
really
learned
anything
from
freight
farms
demise.
Okay.
I
think
that,
you
know,
people
are
very
good
at
making
excuses.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
just
guiding
the
conversation
back
to
where
they
wanted
to
go.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
I'll
tell
you
something,
one
of
the
things
that
I've
really
noticed
is
who
hasn't
commented
on
Freightfall
is
more
important
than
the
people
that
have.
That's
interesting.
Okay.
And
if
you
take
all
the
superstars,
okay.
And
you
go
back
through
all
of
the
freight
farms
and
Smallhold
and
all
the
high
profile
popular
kids
bankruptcies,
you'll
see
who
didn't
comment
is
more
important
than
who
did.
That's
interesting.
Yeah.
Lots
to
learn
from.
And
I
think
it's
interesting
for
you
to
have
that
perspective
because
I
think
most
people
are
just
focused
on
who's
commenting.
But
then
you,
to
your
point,
like,
you
have
to
think
about
what's
their
ulterior
motive
if
they
have
a
company
that's,
that
could
benefit
from
them
or
are
they,
you
know,
looking
good
so
they
could,
you
know,
it's
more
of
a
marketing
play
at
that
point.
Just
like,
hey,
let's
make
sure
we're
in
this
conversation
because
they
don't
want
to
be
left
out.
Well,
let's
make
sure
we're
not
in
that
conversation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So
Glenn,
I
like
to
leave
as
we
wrap
up.
Just
I
always
leave
a
couple
of
minutes
for.
And
you've
got
a
lot
of
guidance
for
this
industry,
so
maybe
something
you've
said
already,
but
in
the
interest
of
like
fostering
conversations
between
everyone
in
this
space,
I
like
leaving
a
couple
of
minutes
at
the
end
for
any.
Just
messages
that
or,
you
know,
parting
words
for
this
industry.
Give.
And
especially
with
you,
and
given
your
experience
and
what
you've
seen
in
terms
of
the
hype
and
the
ups
and
downs,
you
know,
sometimes
we
do
need
elder
statesmen
in
the
room
to
sort
of
talk,
you
know,
about
how
things
really
are.
Well,
I
think
that
the
most
important
thing
is
that
if
somebody
decides
to
go
into
this
business,
I
think
the
first
thing
they
need
to
do
is
go
sit
in
the
room
by
yourself
and
ask
yourself,
why
am
I
doing
this?
You
know,
and
if
your
response
is
for
the
money.
Well,
for
anything
other
than,
you
know
what
I
mean,
to
build
a
nice
business
that
you
can
enjoy
and
just
in,
you
know,
do
something
good
for
yourself
and
your
community,
don't
do
it.
I
mean,
it's
as
simple
as
that.
This
is
not
a
throw
the
money.
This
is
not
a
put
the
seed
in
the
ground
and
take
the
money
to
the
bank.
Yeah.
It
just
doesn't
work
that
way.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
network
and
ask
questions,
you
know,
and
listen.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
just,
you
know,
do
your
homework
and
do
your
research
and,
you
know,
spend
10
minutes
behind
the
head
after
the
headline,
you
know
what
I
mean?
And
find
out
what's
really
going
on.
That's,
you
know,
but
more
important
than
anything,
the
most
important
thing,
you
know,
is
to
whatever
you
do
with
it,
honesty
and
integrity,
you
know,
look
in
the
mirror
and
like
what
you
see.
I
think
some
people
probably
have
a
challenge
with
just
that,
that
part
of
the
instructions.
And
I
think,
you
know,
and
Harry,
you
know,
gotta
believe,
and
I'm
not
gonna
throw
any
stones,
but
you
gotta
believe
that
a
lot
of
my
thinking
of
who
I
want
to
be
as
a
human
being.
Yeah.
Is
based
on
some
anecdotal
evidence,
you
know,
that
I've
seen
other
people
do
things
that
I
just
don't
want
to
be
that
person.
Yeah.
You
know,
so.
Well,
it's
been
a
fascinating
insight
into
your
world,
Glenn,
and
I'm
glad
we
finally
made
the
time
to
have
this
conversation.
And
you've
got
a
lot
of
experience
and
a
lot
of
stories
and
been
through
that
school
of
hard
knocks
several
times,
I
might
imagine,
to
get
to
where
you
are.
So
I
appreciate
you
coming
on
and
sharing
your
story.
I
really
enjoyed
it.
And
I
think
you
have
a
lot
of
wisdom
for
this
industry
and
I
hope
people
pay
attention
to
what
you
have
to
say
because,
I
mean,
you've
seen
what
works
and
what
doesn't.
But
I
think
giving
people
the
unvarnished
truth,
I
think
is
more
important
at
the
end
of
the
day
so
people
don't
get
into
other
hype
cycles
down
the
line.
Yeah,
well,
there's.
They're
out
there,
that's
for
sure.
Everybody's
found
that.
Everybody
found
their
sweet
spot.
Yeah.
You
know,
and
it's
a
shame
because
like
I
say,
people
just,
you
know,
social
media
is
not
a
good
thing,
you
know,
but
anyway,
look,
you
know,
my
door
is
open,
you
know,
as
long
as
people
come
to
me
the
right
way.
Yeah.
I'll
give
them
five
minutes,
you
know
what
I
mean?
But
if
they
come
the
wrong
way,
five
minutes
is
far
too
many.
What's
the
best
way
for
folks
to
get
in
contact
with
you?
Email.
Email.
Okay,
we'll
make
sure
that's.
We'll
put
it
in
the
show
notes.
I
think
we've
got
that.
And
make
sure
people
can.
Yeah,
no,
I'll,
I'm
more
than
happy
to
help
if
somebody
is
sincere,
you
know.
Harry,
was
good
talking
to
you.
Thank
you.
Yeah,
likewise.
I'm
looking.
When's
your
next
conference?
Oh,
green
tech.
Oh,
green
tech.
Yeah,
yeah,
green
tech.
And
then
after
green
tech,
I'm
taking
a
week
and
just,
I'm
going
to
Marseille.
Oh,
Nice.
And
to
Provence.
That
sounds
nice.
Hopefully
my
wife
is
meeting.
The
show
ends
on
Thursday
and
my
wife
is
meeting
me.
I'm
meeting
my
wife
in
Paris
on.
That's
beautiful.
We're
taking
a
weekend
traveling
around
France.
Oh,
that's
going
to
be
nice.
Well,
say
hi
to
separate
because
Sepper's
going
to
be
out
there.
Yeah,
definitely.
Yeah.
And
I
know
he
wants
to
connect
with
you
as
well,
so
I
appreciate
your
time,
Glenn.
Okay,
thank
you.
Thanks
again
for
listening.
Eternally
grateful
to
my
guests
for
spending
that
precious
hour
of
time
with
me.
And
sharing
their
story.
As
always,
full
show
notes
available@verticalfarmingpodcast.com
there
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takeaways
and
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and
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